Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

[Sylvina]

I see common sense is not your strong suit. If tanks and healers did damage on par with DPS, they would be incredibly overpowered. Hell, if anything, tanks and healers already do far too much damage as it is.

I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I said that DPS should not do MORE THAN TWICE TO THREE TIMES the damage, not that Tank or Healer DPS should be on par.

Understanding game balance and the reasons behind it isn't your strong suit either it seems.

[zipzo]

I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I said that DPS should not do MORE THAN TWICE TO THREE TIMES the damage, not that Tank or Healer DPS should be on par.

Understanding game balance and the reasons behind it isn't your strong suit either it seems.

Could you elaborate on why you believe that DPS classes having X amount more DPS potential than tanks or healers (past Y point) messes up game balance? Healers or tanks having better DPS seems like an obvious one, because then you basically make regular DPS obsolete when you can just bring a bunch of tanks who are less likely to die due to their survivability or healers who can simply make group durability much higher.

Saying that DPS, who's sole role is to DPS, having too much more DPS than classes who aren't mainly meant to DPS would make things imbalanced, seems like an odd evaluation. The two things seem pretty mutually exclusive.

[Sylvina]

Could you elaborate on why you believe that DPS classes having X amount more DPS potential than tanks or healers (past Y point) messes up game balance?

Because like it or not MMOs are about more than only group content with balanced parties, and when the dps of the dps classes begins to exceed 3 times that of the healers and tanks, in order to continue to make content interesting for the dps, enemies start to need a LOT of HP, which eventually becomes too much for the tanks and healers to burn through solo without it becoming either impossible or a huge slog.

When this happens even LESS people play tanks and healers, and you can enjoy your 10 hour dps queues. this is regardless of whether or not tanks can still hold aggro above the overpowered dps at this point.

In order to avoid this, DPS must remain at a certain ratio between tanks, dps, and healers, with dps of COURSE doing the most but not way too much more.

[zipzo]

Because like it or not MMOs are about more than only group content with balanced parties, and when the dps of the dps classes begins to exceed 3 times that of the healers and tanks, in order to continue to make content interesting for the dps, enemies start to need a LOT of HP, which eventually becomes too much for the tanks and healers to burn through solo without it becoming either impossible or a huge slog.

Isn't WoW an example of how this isn't necessarily true? DPS do massive orders of damage more than tank classes in optimal settings even for the tank, but soloing as a tank in WoW is not considered to be a slog, in fact many think being a tank out in the world is basically god mode (massive AOE damage because of tanking tools, and high survivability).

[Sylvina]

Isn't WoW an example of how this isn't necessarily true? DPS do massive orders of damage more than tank classes in optimal settings even for the tank, but soloing as a tank in WoW is not considered to be a slog, in fact many think being a tank out in the world is basically god mode (massive AOE damage because of tanking tools, and high survivability).

I dunno I arrived at my conclusion with math and logic so I don't think WoW actually does that to the degree you say. I played a DPS in WoW and my parses did not exceed the tanks by that much usually. I was doing 300k dps and the tank was sitting at around 100k.

[Kuwagami]

Because like it or not MMOs are about more than only group content with balanced parties,

You may or may not like it, but it all comes down to "people nowadays are unable to accept that they couldn't progress in the story solo and should group with other people in order to wander in the overworld".

Aka "people nowadays can't be bothered to play a MMO and want to interact the least possible with others".


It has been proved that the group model is an economical failure when at the scale of WoW or FFXIV, but it's not about game balance. Tanks could do 1/10th of the damage DPS do and game balance would be good if DPS took 10 times the damage tank take from auto attacks.

[Sylvina]

You may or may not like it, but it all comes down to "people nowadays are unable to accept that they couldn't progress in the story solo and should group with other people in order to wander in the overworld".

Aka "people nowadays can't be bothered to play a MMO and want to interact the least possible with others".


It has been proved that the group model is an economical failure when at the scale of WoW or FFXIV, but it's not about game balance. Tanks could do 1/10th of the damage DPS do and game balance would be good if DPS took 10 times the damage tank take from auto attacks.

So you're ok with tanks taking 20 minutes to kill a single mob which a dps finishes off in 3 seconds?

[Kuwagami]

?

Yeah because there is no in between "tanks do 3/4th of dps's job" and "tanks do 1/40th of dps's job".

Not to mention you didn't understand what I was talking about. In a MMO where tank dps is neglictible, all the "I solo the entire game" thing doesn't exist. Tanks can't really kill mobs alone, dps get killed if they try, etc..

God forbid you should group with people in a MMO's overworld map. Ain't got no time to socialize.

[Shurrikhan]

Tanks should be complimented for staying in TANK role and holding aggro too. I don't get the constant insistence on tanks doing the DPS job, regardless of the balance requirement that tank dps be within a certain percentage of dps dps.

But why "stay" in tank stance when you can survive just fine, at greater gains typically to your own DPS than available to your healer, after having already gotten plenty of aggro? To butter your "role" with a smattering of misplaced pride while actually contributing less?

Not to mention you didn't understand what I was talking about. In a MMO where tank dps is neglictible, all the "I solo the entire game" thing doesn't exist. Tanks can't really kill mobs alone, dps get killed if they try, etc.

How is it more fun to need a near perfect allotment of healers or a bulwark of non-DPS just to get the simplest of things done? By all means, make that case for stronger mobs. (As it is already, in many a FATE or A-rank...) But why should I need a healer and a tank to kill dire-mite?

Forcing players to cooperate because of painfully restrictive parameters does not make the overworld fun. Overworld designs that allow for creative cooperation does. And the funny thing about that... those things tend to work better without ripping out or neglecting prior mechanics (e.g. the near-complete removal of CC in dungeon content at 50+, leaving systems such as melee range detection on moving targets or pet responsiveness at dark age levels, etc.) and inflating mob damage and passive role distinction to force trinities on people.