What happened to SB (story)?

[Malzian]

After beating Fordola, we knew that Zenos had the same source of power. But we also needed a special device to weaken Fordola so we could best her in combat. We employed no special tactics against Zenos, we just beat him down like anyone else. Which implies that Fordola is far stronger than Zenos (which is not how the story presents it).

As for Omega damaging Shinryu heavily, I want to point out that a relatively long time went by in game time between Omega and Shinryu fighting, and us getting to fight Shinryu. It certainly didn't look very hurt when we went to battle it, and I doubt that it being imprisoned by the Garleans had done more than make it really angry.

I'll take your point about the eyes, though. Though I suspect that Shinryu would have tried to raid somewhere with a lot of crystals, were it running out of aether to stay corporeal.

Actually, it was imprisoned by Omega, not the Garleans, and we don't know all the effects that field had on Shinryu. On top of that, all other Primals need worshipers to maintain themselves in addition to crystals, hence why Primals 'temper' people. Shinryu's initial "worshipers" all died before he was manifest and he didn't have time to put anyone under his sway.

For Zenos, I did say that I can't speak to how we exploited his weakness to overcome him, but we had already shown signs during the second encounter that we were starting to rise up to his level. Once more, there's a LOT we don't know about the Echo and how it actually works at this point and that really becomes our "plot armor" in the end.

[Chadness]

My annoyances can best be summed up like this: ARR was an amazing hero origin story with plenty of that "I came here to adventure" feel. The writing was stellar and you genuinely felt like you were this regular person who got caught up in things and discovered you were more than that. Working hard to do the right thing and exploring the continent as you went from place to place. The feeling was that and more, and it felt genuine. HW had you interact with a nation engaged in a massive war going on for over a thousand years and that war felt just as massive as it was told in the story. Everything felt huge and you felt like an experienced adventurer who just started to get a hang of the weight behind their fame and capabilities. You worked hard and made a big difference; and it felt like you made the difference as only a hero could. The epic war felt epic.

Then comes SB... and a large-scale war spanning the world being fought on two fronts somehow feels tiny. By the end of it I felt like I helped two small tribes and interacted with a third small tribe that was divided. What happened?

Eh,as other people have stated, everyone's preferences differ. To be honest, I enjoyed the - as you put it, "hero origin story" of ARR. I thought Heavensward felt epic, sure. But, didn't really care for the story or presentation that much, outside of a few key moments, all of which revolve around the characters, and not the epic, overarching war story, really. See, opinions differ. It sounds like you're going a bit overboard with your "I dislike the story so I'm quitting" melodrama.

I thought SB was the strongest out of all three stories, but it still isn't without its issues.

The first thing to rage about was being asked by Alphinaud what you thought on the Ala Mhigan rebellion. I was given three VAGUE options.

That being said, it isn't like I don't agree with you on some points, including this one. But, at the same time, this game isn't Mass Effect or Skyrim, you can't expect the pitiful choices in dialog they give you to have any effect whatsoever. The best you can hope for is possibly a changed line of dialog. And even games that are affected by your choices still have responses that don't quite fit the bill to the meaning that you meant to give your selection. This isn't a problem with this game in particular, it's a problem with games in general.

Then facing Xenos for the first time. He takes you down without effort and one of the characters states how useless everything you went through before is. Your esteemed allies and practiced soldiers just lose to everyone, even the foot soldiers of Garlemald. Seriously, what's the deal?

I do understand where you're coming from, however, I viewed that event in Rhalgar's Reach (and, consequently, the follow-up event when you face Zenos again in Yanxia) as something that sorely needed to happen. I've been feeling for a while that the WOL needs to get their tail end handed to them a time or two. It was getting tiresome basically looking at the strongest baddies in all Eorzea and have them fall over dead. We NEEDED to feel like we can't immediately beat everything or solve every problem.

That being said, Zenos, as we all know now, isn't entirely just "human" (well, he's Garlean, but we know what you meant).

The next disappointment is the Ruby Sea.

Agreed. I still enjoyed the zone though.

Then we free the nation of Doma... but it really doesn't feel like it. The map is still just as quiet as when we got there. Anyway, back to Eorzea.

The Doma part of the story I thought was way stronger and more enjoyable than the Ala Mhigo parts at the beginning and end. I especially enjoyed the Azim Steppe portion, as I felt it was the best portion of main story in the entire expansion, possibly the entire game. Just the look, feel, music, characters, quests, were all outstanding and I hope they do more with that zone in the future.

The conclusion was actually fantastic, except everything that led up to it was less than the outcome. I wasn't fighting Xenos in the end, I was fighting a primal. So all that build up and hype, and now the final villain needs a boost to keep up with us? When did we get so strong? I can't tell because we didn't actually fight a ton of big monsters beforehand. We fought enemies that everyone knew we were better than and only pushed our capabilities twice before that. 2+2 suddenly equaled 103 and I missed how we got there. When did we add 99 to that?

I wholeheartedly agree that it was a bit odd that we legitimately steamrolled over anything in our way in the last portion of the main story, although from storming Ala Mhigo (the dungeon) to the final fight was all pretty epic. It's just...a bit odd that, again, the Garleans basically died when we looked in their general direction the entire last portion of the story.

Anyway, between lag and a story that felt so poorly executed and written, I just don't really care that much anymore. Once my 6 months runs out I won't stretch my income to make the next payment, so this is my "x weeks notice" in a sense. [Congratulations!] I no longer feel any connection to what was my favorite game of all time.

Let's be honest, this is a bit overly dramatic. C'mon. If it is indeed your "Favorite game of all time", then you should be a little forgiving if you disliked one small portion of it, a portion of which really isn't even concluded yet, because we have half a dozen patches of story content yet to come in the future, where, frankly, many of your issues could be explained.

To wrap things up, I enjoyed SB more than HW - comparing expansions - possibly because SB focuses way more on the PEOPLE, and less on the "OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING IN A HUGE FIREBALL IF WE SCREW UP" feeling. I like people stories, stories with heart. The portions of the HW story that I enjoyed the most were the parts focusing on the PEOPLE, not the epicness of ending the war and defeating a huge baddie. SB brought focus on the people and their plight, and what we could do to help, more to the forefront, while still retaining some of the epic feeling, but not solely focusing on it, which is what I enjoyed.

But, like I said at the outset, different people enjoy different things.

[Dark-Saviour]

I do understand where you're coming from, however, I viewed that event in Rhalgar's Reach (and, consequently, the follow-up event when you face Zenos again in Yanxia) as something that sorely needed to happen. I've been feeling for a while that the WOL needs to get their tail end handed to them a time or two. It was getting tiresome basically looking at the strongest baddies in all Eorzea and have them fall over dead. We NEEDED to feel like we can't immediately beat everything or solve every problem.

We already had something like that in the wings. Two things, actually; Shinryu and Omega.



We should be threatened by things that actually are worthy of a legend. Someone described as a one-(wo)man-army shouldn't be getting tossed around so handily by one enemy soldier even if he (potentially) had a bootleg version of our ability.

You want to make Garlemald feel dangerous? Have Zenos fight us, then, as we win, tell us to look around as war machines and droves of soldiers slaughter everyone nearby. Garlemald should never be the Apollo Creed to our Rocky; it's strength lies in its population, technological superiority, and reach. It should be threatening, not because any individual in the army can take us on, but because no matter how strong we are, we can't take down even a fraction of their entire army alone, and certainly not before they murder everyone else in their way.

[Theodric]

Stormblood's story was great...for the most part. It did feel a little rushed in places though and the decision to disallow the protagonists to try and seek peace with Garlemald feels like a major case of executive meddling given that Yoshi-P is on record as saying that he is 'surprised' that people sympathise with the likes of Gaius. Which unnerves me as I do not want another dull tale about how a ragtag band manage to take down a mighty Empire. I want Garlemald to be handled the same way as Archades in FFXII so that we eventually make peace and do not seek to destroy it.

Lyse was the weakest link of the expansion for me. Her shifting from 'Yda' to 'Lyse' felt too forced and distracting. Zenos not caring about Garlemald at all and sabotaging his own side's efforts is also too convenient too - because the protagonists should have caught on that if they reached out and tried to be diplomatic then they could probably have found people who did not agree with Zenos' actions. They already know from Regula that there are high ranking honourable Garleans but he was killed off and forgotten about which is a bit disgusting unless it plays into the plot later on.

[Jandor]

The story would often not make sense if we have other adventurers with us. Also the lore book states us at going against any primal alone and only the fights in the Garlean base (lvl50) is fought with a group. Also the enemies often talk about us like we are alone.

The lore book directly contradicts the game in that case, all the following are taken from the in-game journal entries.

Given the likelihood that Iceheart is now aware of your plans and making haste to complete the summoning ritual, Alphinaud advises you to assemble a party of battle-hardened adventurers capable of felling Shiva if necessary.

You have attuned yourself to the Sylphlands aetheryte. Gather your companions, and challenge the Lord of Levin beneath the boughs of the Striking Tree!

You inform Wedge that you are ready to hunt the white whale. Board the Enterprise with your companions and rid the Sea of Clouds of Bismarck's ravenous presence.

Time is of the essence. Summon your faithful comrades to your side and cast down the dread Goddess lest all be judged upon her scales!

Regula's sacrifice has afforded you the chance to strike at a weakened Zurvan. With their tasks assigned, your companions depart to secure the controls to the eikon's shackles. It falls to you and your handpicked company of warriors to bring oblivion to the Demon himself.

There are plenty of entries where companions are not mentioned, but I haven't found any (so far) that explicitly state you beat the primal solo. The dialogue leaves things rather open-ended, but digging deeper it really seems the canon is that you have help doing the things you do, at least if we go by what the game says rather than the book.

So yes them going back in SB with their hints of having others with us (even in the trial where we should prove that we are a warrior for the Mol) is completely annoying, especially since Doma is quite far away from Eorzea and we only traveled with the scions there.

We didn't only travel with the Scions though, we took at least three people with us, remember when the boat crashed and we all went off to investigate together?

[Malzian]

The lore book directly contradicts the game in that case, all the following are taken from the in-game journal entries.

-Range of quotes-

There are plenty of entries where companions are not mentioned, but I haven't found any (so far) that explicitly state you beat the primal solo. The dialogue leaves things rather open-ended, but digging deeper it really seems the canon is that you have help doing the things you do, at least if we go by what the game says rather than the book.

This boils down to being an inevitable artifact of having a multiplayer game while still trying to present to every single player that they, singularly are the hero, the one and only WoL. What you get is a disconnect in that the story presents to you that you're the sole protagonist and everyine else in the game, every other player you partner with, it's just a normal adventurer that is helping you. It's an illusion and its really hard to maintain since we all know that literally -everyone else- is seeing the same thing we are, just with the perspective shifted so that THEY are the heroic, sole and singular WoL. There's no real good way to balance this, unfortunately, and as-such you will always run into this paradox unless you, as a player, just decide to think only about the singular perspective you are being presented with.

[JunseiKei]

This is a thread on personal bias. Having said this, I personally enjoyed Stormblood just as much, if not more, than Heavensward, which I enjoyed far more than A Realm Reborn (AKA A Realm of Fetch-quests). Also, will be voicing thoughts on other posts, so not quoting any.

The war is huge, but you ultimately get things done by mobilizing guerilla warfare against the Garleans to help both Doma and Ala Mhigo. I don't remember the exact things Alphinaud asked, but I remember picking the last option and him being in concurrence. I don't recall them being vague either (I want to say one was this isn't my fight, but I'll help; another being along the lines of I'm a Scion and Shinryu is out there somewhere or something and the last being if there are those in need, then there is more I can do). One is selfish, one is honor-bound, one is selfless; they were all pretty cut-and-dry to me.

Zenos's power gets revealed at the end of 4.0's story. He just never executed the whole thing because no one he ever fought was worthy in his eyes. Also, with Rhalgr's Reach, I suppose the leap of logic they want to apply here is that there was simply no need to attack it according to Zenos. Again, everyone is beneath him and before you arrived, it was very apparent that the Resistance was close to breaking. There was simply no need; time would have obliterated it ere the warrior of light came.

Can't comment on the size of a sea as we don't even know the scale of Eorzea. We have a means of measuring it, but I, for one, don't wish to go into The Game Theorist calculations to accomplish this.

Unsure what you're talking about to Yotsuyu. The only time she talks about the abuse is when she plans to take you all with her with a pre-determined rigging of Doma Castle. Up until that point, all you heard her monologue (this is a thing in writing, especially in plays and is not meta; it's meant for the viewer). There was also a point in time she was talking with Gotetsu.

Yugiri's motive is simple: she doesn't think she can move the people of Doma to fight for themselves, but does not want to give up fighting for the freedom her people deserve. To her, even if she dies, going to fight for freedom is 'worth it' because it's better than accepting subjugation. If she can't convince the people, can cannot convince Hien.

That is one thing I wish had more of an impact in the world, but this was also felt in Heavensward. Then again, the Dragonsong War didn't end at the end of 3.0, either. Ala Mhiga sits right on Garlemald's borders (or close to it). This is where I wish the FATE system was used more and mobilized more Garlean skirmishes to at least make it feel like the Garlean factions may still be lurking. Most of the FATEs are just local monsters. A missed opportunity.

That's the thing with the warrior of light. Your strength waxes and wanes to fit the narrative. In 2.x, this was at least supplemented with Hydaelyn spending her strength to protect you and is left weakened. Midgardsormr strips you of her strength (perhaps to help Hydaelyn recupperate while you continue the various denizen's fights). However, Zenos made the grave error of possessing a primal; you know, you the 'Eikon-slayer.' The person who has slain every primal without fail, but I doubt a Garlean actually keeps up with details.

I don't know, maybe I just chalked the fight up to being you went in wholly unprepared the first couple of times against him? The first time Zenos really put you in your place, but you were alone. The second you held your own with Yugiri, but were still forced to flee. The final time, you hold your ground completely and make him do something drastic with a band of adventurers. See the pattern? Alone and beaten, with a companion and you do better, bring the crew and it's time for boss butt-kicking. *Plays FF9's Not Alone track and scene.*

The thing is, the Scion always was a side-ploy. A plot device as to why you will always be on the front lines against primals and other major issues. Any Final Fantasy game will ultimately tell you that you are the hero that goes above and beyond what most people in any given world are able to accomplish, no matter how menial, or impossible, the tasks are. That choice, the honor-bound one, shows you have no real interests in what happens to the denizens of the world. You're willing to save them, but it reads like you don't care about the world. If you pay attention to the Heavensward plot, it makes you question Hydaelyn's own motives. That, or you're working toward what the Warriors of Darkness were trying to prevent, 'cause the Ascians are just the other side of the same coin you share. It also makes your character look like they didn't heed what their story meant.

As for the pacing, I could see people's points. However, I will also state mine: just because we freed Doma and Ala Mhigo does not mean the war is actually over. Take the Dragonsong War for example. After killing Nidhogg, people still revolted and lost their way due to their indoctrined faiths shattered. There was already a hint of this in 4.0's story: the youths are the one most likely to turn you in and rebel, as they never experienced pre-Garlean rule. I completely expect to be a lot of conflict on both sides. I wonder just what Yotsuyu will do; she's not like to turn a new leaf so easily.

We also can't just retaliate against the army of Garlemald. It's been pointed out before that they take people from lands they have conquered and force them into service. You'd be slaying many people that are only there because they'd probably die otherwise, though by Garlean influence, not yours. I actually pity the Garleans quite a bit; according to the lore book, they'd been pushed back and raided so many times by other nations that once they found technological advancement through the Allagans, they went mad with power and are basically exacting revenge. Pity they never heard the phrase 'an eye for an eye and the world goes blind.'

My only real complaints are that I wish Zenos lasted longer. I liked his character; he was a genuinely selfish and amoral villian. Then again, I like Yujiro Hanma and he definitely felt like a Garlean Yujiro (but sadly nowhere near as strong). The pacing seemed rushed, but for what we did in Heavensward, that was also rushed. However, if that's what we're left with for not having filler fetch quests, I'd rather keep the rushed feeling.

[Arutan]

Ok.
/10char

[Alleo]

The lore book directly contradicts the game in that case, all the following are taken from the in-game journal entries.

We didn't only travel with the Scions though, we took at least three people with us, remember when the boat crashed and we all went off to investigate together?

I would dare to say that a lore book is probably way more cannon than ingame writings, especially since they heavily depend on the language. For example in the german version of Susanno there is no sentence about our other adventurers. Also the part with the ship shows exactly how bad this is. We go to Doma only with the scions, all the cutscenes before and after that show it. We are also completely alone again when Alphinaud runs towards us after the boss fight. Why are the other adventurers always leaving us alone? Its the same in Doma castle. Where are the others that should have fought with you in the last cutscene? Why are there no birds for them in the sky, because there is only one bird left without someone on it. Why would the adventurers leave us behind in the most crucial scenes? Why would we always get full credit if we always have others with us?

Also in HW you have dungeons like Sohr Khai that are trials so we should do them alone, yet ingame mechanics have us with others that are again gone afterwards. We go with Cid and Co. toward Azys Lla, there is no other adventurer with us, so we did beat the dungeon (and Regula) and Thordan and his 12 knights canonically alone.

And about the rest of primals. Many situations itself do not make sense with other people there. Ifrit captures you and the other soldiers, yet they would leave you without bindings and there is truly a lake there where you can just go and gather other people (that you randomly met in the desert since you cant get far away or they will notice that you are gone?). How big is the chance that you do all of that without them noticing it, and with gathering three other people that have echo too. Also again in the cutscene Ifrit only mentions you and its also only the WoL there. Afterwards Thancred also only worries about you. Bismark is another case of jerks as other adventurers if they were there with you. Because after the fight you are ganged up by Thordan and one Ascian. Where are the others? Why did they not help?

Ramuh wants to fight against the WoL (which only got there with the scions) to test our strength and talks only about us again. If we should show him our strength wouldnt it be cheating to go with others against him? The same in SB where Lyse, Gosetsu and Hien all take the path solo..yet the text says that we should gather other people. WoL = cheater confirmed? Yet again, when we are finished and Lyse is already there, we are alone again. I just cant believe that we have that many adventurer friends that are especially where we need them all the time, are on the same power level as we are, disappear in nearly every cutscene after the dungeon/trial and are not known in the world too.

I am not sure why they went out of their way to write it down again, especially after it was Koji that had a big hand in the lore book thus used it to confirm that most of the stuff is done alone. Maybe its some type of humor?

Sorry for the bit of off topic.

[Jandor]

.

I would guess the game is more canon than the lore book, especially when the point of contention that started this conversation is them mentioning your adventurer friends a lot in Stormblood, which came out after the lore book. It just doesn't make sense for the extra out of game source to take priority over the latest update to the game itself.

As for never seeing other adventurers in cutscenes, there are two parts to that. The first is that you do see them, I think in basically every multi player event you participate in the victory scene at the end shows your adventurer friends celebrate with you. The second is that they are not shown in story cutscenes for gameplay reasons, your adventurer friends are obviously actual random people put together from whatever the duty finder can assemble, the cutscenes before and after the duty proper have no idea who will be with you or who you were just with. In the lore whoever you're running it with is a close friend, in reality they're some random people you'll probably never see again. Gameplay and story segregation at work.

Your adventurer friends are basically like your chocobo companion, you're meant to just assume that they're always close enough that circumstances will allow you to go get them.

For Sohr Khai, the journal states: "Hraesvelgr commends you and your companions for your unwavering determination, and pledges to aid you in the coming battle with Nidhogg. Inquire of Alphinaud how he fared in his own trial."
For whatever reason Hraesvelgr was pretty chill with the idea of you bringing help to your trial.

Ifrit story mode is, as I already acknowledged, by far the most likely to have been solo'd. "Having failed to make you his minion, Ifrit attempts to exterminate you, but against all odds you succeed in overcoming the god-like being."
It never mentions any help and while it doesn't explicitly state solo in the same way as it repeatedly states you have help, that would be the default reading of it.

After Bismarck, your journal explains that you're still exhausted from fighting when Thordan and the Ascian take the key from you. "still weak from your struggles against Bismarck and Igeyhorm, can only watch, powerless to stop them."
You're adventurer friends are good, but your character is still the strongest one, they're your team, you lead them. If you're too exhausted to fight they must be on the verge of collapsing.

Essentially as far as I can tell in game, it either doesn't explicitly say either way, or it says you have help. They rarely make a point of shoving it in your face that you had help, but some of the dialogue and a lot of journal entries show that you have it. I personally think the point of not shoving it in your face is to allow players the freedom to for the most part explain it how they like.

If that's not the end of it then lets agree to disagree, not the end of the world. How you choose to interpret your characters story has no bearing on me and how I look at mine none on you.