[SPOILERS] Stormblood Ending

[Theodric]

As an aside, Regula being 'racist' isn't nearly a big a deal as some people like to make out. Not in the context of a fictional setting where racism is shown to be very widespread. Countless NPC's within friendly territory are casually racist in a manner simply to Regula and there's others who are far worse - such as those shown as tormenting Duskwights within Gridania. Kugane also has a mixed reaction to 'Ijin' - be it curiosity and friendliness or contempt and hostility.

Aside from racism there's also a lot of contempt shown based on one's social class. Again, this plays out in both friendly and hostile territory.

[Daralii]

I know you mean the empire rather than the race, but don't forget that Cid and Lucia are both nice garleans.

Also, while Gaius was our antagonist, he actually did not see the WoL as a bad person, and respected us. He asked us to join him as we were pursuing the same goal, and IMO was a reasonable man, who I want back in the story.

Edit: I am now unsure if you are referring to Nero or Regula now. Either way, there is more than one

The Garleans as individuals aren't inherently evil, but the Empire as an entity is. The reason Cid defected was because Solus, the nobility, and the military decided to continue with Project Meteor after the first Lunar Transmitter prototype wiped out a city-state.

[Alleo]

Again, you choose to ignore the likes of Gaius and Baut.

Do you really see Gaius as being diplomatic? The only "choice" the alliance had was either to give up their sovereignty to Garlemald or be destroyed by Ultima...how is this diplomacy? You can see Gaius all you want but saying that something like that is a push towards peace leave me with no words.

Also Baut is a simple soldier, maybe not even from Garlean birth and he choose to go without a fight. Yet the village itself was more than happy to have Garlemald gone so the occupation was not that nice.

Again, nobody is saying that no such individual exit in Garlemald but there needs to be more than one or two to create lasting peace (and I mean true peace and not some forced working together).

But its nice how you try to spin Garlemalds need to conquer the world in a positive light. Its not like they did not destroy the seal on the lake thanks to their actions, thus making it easier to summon primals or that a lot of beast tribes summon them out of fear for their lives. (And dropping the "moon" onto Eorzea made the life of all the people there worse, thus more conflict which means more primal summoning. At the same time Shinryue only exist because Ilbert wanted to free Ala Mhigo of their reign.) They have no rights to conquer the world, Eorzea did nothing to them and all the conflicts they ever had in the past where with their own continent..none of them attacked Garlemald before that. So stop trying to show their conquer in a positive light please..They could have tried to talk with them but instead they thought that taking away someones freedom would help..going around and taking away the belief of the people, their cultures, their work, their life will help with the problem. Instead they make it worse.

Also just because a lot of people on Hydaelyn are racist does not make it okay..I mean Gridania being racist towards at least one of the races is one negative point of the city state. One cant go around and say that its bad by one state and totally ignore it by the other. (I mean how many like to point out how Gridania behaves, but its suddenly not bad if Garlean people use it?)

[Theodric]

Gaius put an offer on the table. The Warrior of Light had slaughtered countless Imperials up until that point and yet Gaius was still prepared to strike up a deal.

Baut being a 'simple soldier' is false. He was lofty enough in rank to control how his fellow soldiers treated an entire settlement and became loved by those residing there as a result.

...and again, there's only been a tiny number of Garleans who have been spoken to directly so far. To claim that most of them are bad when we've only seen a tiny number in the grand scheme of things is deceptive. It's been mixed and will continue to be as such no matter how often some people here choose to kick and scream or downplay it.

As for the whole 'racism' angle, again - it's a large part of the established setting. Hydaelyn isn't a pleasant place to live and not all of the xenophobia is without merit. A lot of people like to pretend it is for the sake of virtue signalling but the reality is that some cultures and races are just poorly compatible due to vastly different values and practices. You also need only look at how Garlemald's successes and redeeming elements are consistently downplayed on this very board - that in itself is a form of discrimination, judgemental behaviour and xenophobia.

It's not entirely without justification - but at the same time it's not without justification for the Garleans to see those less advanced than they as 'savages', either. So it really isn't that big a deal nor does it detract much at all from Regula proving to be both honourable and heroic.

As always, though, I will happily agree to disagree. It's not a difficult thing to do, we know we're not going to change each other's minds so there's really nothing to lose unless some posters are truly desperate to get in the last word or open up a new thread with 'playful' snipes only to complain when they themselves are given the same treatment. I'm fairly certain a lot of people are pretty tired of seeing these 'debates' pop up every time Garlemald is mentioned, anyway.

My stance is that a lot of people are poorly suited to discussing complicated issues such as law, war and politics as they lack the ability to distance themselves from emotional arguments. They make their mind up well in advance and have no intention of ever seeing things from the other side's point of view. They'll focus primarily on trying to score 'points' for their side, or preaching about how they perceive themselves to have the moral high ground. Critical thinking, too, is unfortunately an uncommon skill in the present day.

It is rare in both the real world or a fictional setting such as this for things to be black or white. Everybody has a story and their reasons for doing what it is that they do. To pretend as if that isn't the case is to simply perpetuate any issues that exist.

Now, if you don't agree with that? Fair enough, but let's not pretend as if we're ever going to get anywhere with these debates if so. Just throw me on ignore or something...assuming that can be done on this site, I honestly have not checked.

[Lauront]

The Garleans as individuals aren't inherently evil, but the Empire as an entity is. The reason Cid defected was because Solus, the nobility, and the military decided to continue with Project Meteor after the first Lunar Transmitter prototype wiped out a city-state.

The Empire is inherently nothing, no more than the city-states are. Is Ishgard evil because Thordan wanted to put a decisive end to the primals, or because it waged a thousand year war with the dragons premised on a lie? How about Ul'dah?

The reason Cid defected was because Solus, the nobility, and the military decided to continue with Project Meteor after the first Lunar Transmitter prototype wiped out a city-state.

Citation needed.

You shrimp ladies need to up your game.

At the same time Shinryue only exist because Ilbert wanted to free Ala Mhigo of their reign.)

No, Shinryu only existed because Ilbert was a reckless fool. Much like Thordan only had to assume a primal form due to the actions of his forebears but was nonetheless judged on an individual basis for his action. Sorry, Ilberd is 100% culpable for what he did. He unleashed a dangerous being like Shinryu because he was a rabid, impatient lunatic.

They have no rights to conquer the world, Eorzea did nothing to them

Other than acting as a constant source of eikons/primals.

So stop trying to show their conquer in a positive light please..They could have tried to talk with them but instead they thought that taking away someones freedom would help..going around and taking away the belief of the people, their cultures, their work, their life will help with the problem. Instead they make it worse.

The city-states could have talked with Garlemald before "liberating" Ala Mhigo but decided to head straight into war. They could have "talked" with the beast tribes before deciding to slaughter them, but it fell on the WOL to do that, whereas the initial instruction from the city-states was to basically rid of them. They could have "talked" with Thordan but chose to dispose of him. The problem with "talking" is that the city-states themselves are governed by power-hungry, obstinate rulers who often fail to heed reason. They have been forced by recent events to do so.

Its not like they did not destroy the seal on the lake thanks to their actions, thus making it easier to summon primals or that a lot of beast tribes summon them out of fear for their lives.

From the game's wiki:

“Fifteen years ago, in the skies above Silvertear Falls, the invading forces of the XIVth Legion were set upon by a host of dragons. Leading the charge was Midgardsormr, legendary king of kings, who engaged the Garlean flagship, the Agrius, in battle. In the end, both Midgardsormr and his foe fell to the earth, and their tangled remnants stand as a memorial to that day─a ruined airship, and the charred corpse of the wyrm lord who brought it low, forever devoid of life...”

Sounds to me like the dragons chose to engage and lost.

Also just because a lot of people on Hydaelyn are racist does not make it okay..I mean Gridania being racist towards at least one of the races is one negative point of the city state. One cant go around and say that its bad by one state and totally ignore it by the other. (I mean how many like to point out how Gridania behaves, but its suddenly not bad if Garlean people use it?)

It's only "negative" because of your MSM handed down view of "racism". I don't care one whit if they're "racist" and certainly don't regard it as a negative, as such, certainly not without further qualification. Particularly in a fantasy setting. Does it mean they want to keep their territory their own? If so, where's the problem? Rhetorical question as I don't expect you to be in possession of a satisfactory answer.

Otherwise, keep up with the moral preening/virtue signalling. You're just puffing your chests in the end and failing to impress me.

[Theodric]

As for Cid, he defected due to a misguided sense of a guilt. He isn't particularly heroic - and as seen with Omega his actions have led to the world itself being held hostage. So he is hardly the righteous pillar of morality and great decision making that many like to believe. Then again, throw in a few lines about 'freedom' or 'liberty' and it seems most will automatically side with a particular character and ignore even the most dire of their flaws. Had it been the Garleans who had activated Omega out of desperation to destroy Shinryu and Omega happened to hold the world hostage the narrative, I suspect, would be very different. The protagonists are often touted as being the only ones allowed to be well intentioned extremists.

As for the Meteor Project, by all accounts the support for such a bold undertaking was very mixed. It wasn't heavily supported and it's also very likely that the 'people on the streets', so to speak, have absolutely no opinion or knowledge of such things. Even those who do were clearly of mixed opinion - including Varis, the current Emperor of Garlemald.

To his credit, though, at least Cid had a stronger reason to defect than Lucia who seemingly only did so to fawn over Aymeric...

[Lauront]

Thus I want to see a citation for it. If they just bring up the same second hand Lolorito account, I will proceed to dismiss it on the same basis as before.

[Cilia]

We're playing hardball now, huh? OK, I can do that.

[To van Baelsar] - [Meteor] is the will of our Emperor.

[To van Darnus] ... I will put my faith in your words, as has the Emperor.

Source.

... The impact of the red moon would destroy the primals in an instant. Little wonder that His Radiance embraced the scheme.

Source.

This proves, at the very least, that Solus zos Galvus supported the Meteor Project. Lolorito's account, secondhand as it is, supports the majority of the Garlean elite supporting it as well. Cid's account of what happened at Bozja Citadel:

A tragedy occurred at Bozja Citadel some ten years ago─the result of a failed imperial experiment to summon the red moon of Allag. At the decisive moment, a beam of light burst forth from Dalamud's core and engulfed the citadel. In the blinking of an eye, all life there was wiped from existence. Folk going about their business...children playing in the street... It sickens me to the soul to think of all the innocent lives lost.

Source.

... also proves that the Empire was fully aware of what Meteor could and would do. Upon being defeated in the Second Coil of Bahamut, Nael van Darnus also explicitly states that reviving the Meteor Project was his/her idea, not a result of Bahamut's influence.

[D]o not assume that all of my actions were chosen for me. It was my will that the Meteor project be resurrected─mine and none other.

... regardless of whether or not any given individual supported the Meteor Project, as a sovereign nation, the Garlean Empire did. This is the clear and unclouded truth. The "it was not very popular" line is the fabrication, derived from two prominent individuals decrying the project (and I do not know where Varis' disapproval of the Meteor Project is sourced from; the Lore Book, I presume).

My stance is that a lot of people are poorly suited to discussing complicated issues such as law, war and politics as they lack the ability to distance themselves from emotional arguments. They make their mind up well in advance and have no intention of ever seeing things from the other side's point of view. They'll focus primarily on trying to score 'points' for their side, or preaching about how they perceive themselves to have the moral high ground. Critical thinking, too, is unfortunately an uncommon skill in the present day.

OK, let's work Garlemald's philosophy out logically. No emotions, cold hard logic.

Fact: Garlemald conquered all of Ilsabard before turning their eyes on Othard. Fact: it was during the Othardian campaign that Solus first saw the destructive potential of primals (source). Fact: the Garleans, esp. Solus, were understandably terrified of that potential. Fact: they used this as their reasoning to continue invading other territories.

This is circular reasoning. "We invade other territories because they summon primals, which they summon because we invade them. Therefore we have to invade, even though in so doing we will get primals summoned."

Fact: the Empire launched an unprovoked assault on Eorzea 15 years ago. Fact: Midgardsormr, for reasons still unknown, came to Eorzea's defense. Fact: this led to Midgardsormr's death. Fact: Midgardsormr's death made it easier to summon primals. Fact: it was only after this the Ascians stepped up their activities and began encouraging the beast tribes to summon their gods regularly. Fact: it was only after this that Echo-blessed champions began to emerge in Eorzea. (Source.)

Conclusion: the Empire's attack on Eorzea indirectly made it easier to summon primals. This would not have happened if they had not attacked.

Final conclusion: the Empire's unprovoked aggression results in primal summonings, which run contrary to its stated goal. Simply leaving well enough alone, if not trying to assuage the fears that result in summonings would, logically, be the correct decision. In the event of summonings, carry out surgical operations to banish the eikons, eliminate the tempered so the summoning is not repeated, and continue about daily life. Large-scale massacres will simply encourage further summonings in desperation and are by extension not advised. Genocide, while technically a solution to the issue, will only exacerbate it until it is fully completed. Furthermore, as it is now known the Spoken races can summon, this would require the death of all sapient beings capable of manipulating aether (re: everyone who is not a pureblood Garlean).

I'll leave you to your echo chamber again. You'd also do well to not condescend to those you are addressing, or at least referring to - this is still arrogance.

[Theodric]

Many Primals/Eikons have been conjured up without Garlemald being a factor in both distant and recent history. Garlemald is seeking to break the cycle just as the Allagans once did and so, too, is the Warrior of Light and his allies. The goals all align, it is but a matter of finding the right methods. Nobody has succeeded at finding the 'right method' as of yet and so Garlemald can only truly be criticised if an efficient method is identified and promptly ignored. The invasion of Eorzea is in itself a consequence of the Primal/Eikon threat which is ultimately a problem created by the Ascians/Elidibus and Zodiark.

Garlemald's 'might makes right' approach would not be even be a thing if Eikons/Primals were not a potentially world ending threat. I suppose it's ultimately a matter of perspective - in the real world if a similar threat emerged then certain countries would no doubt do everything possible to prevent it from happening in the first place. Which, yes, would require some dubious methods but sometimes such is a luxury that cannot be afforded. If a flesh eating virus spreads rapidly and there's no cure beyond killing those infected, for instance, then news of a fresh outbreak in a nearby city emerges then preventative measures may very well be taken so that those who are unaffected continue to survive and the threat is contained before it can wreak havoc.

It may very well be that such measures aren't even considered at first only for disaster after disaster to slowly push those in charge to harsher preventative measures. This is often a big theme in apocalyptic settings. Only when a solution is found would things lessen. The Warrior of Light is but a temporary solution and many do not have the luxury of waiting around until he shows up. Thus they resort to increasingly desperate measures.

The ultimate solution is for Garlemald and Eorzea to find common ground and acknowledge each other's differences and work them out through diplomacy. Until that happens both sides are simply playing right into Elidibus' hands - or so it would seem, at any rate. He may actually be different to the Ascians but so far it seems like he has no loyalties beyond Zodiark and is simply manipulating a brutal war from behind the scenes - hence him helping Ilberd and then later showing up on Varis' doorstep. I suspect he is no different to the other Ascians but is simply better at what it is he does and sees even the other Ascians as mere tools to be used and disposed of.

[Okamimaru]

BOOM! Headshot