Are BRD/MCH A Sub DPS Class (Support DPS) or Are They Just DPS Now?

[MomoOG]

I cant think of a "required" class honestly. What are the required classes? The meta?

That's entirely my point. There are no required classes like there was with BRD in ARR. Or maybe I'm remembering incorrectly and BRD wasn't 100% required in raids in ARR? Because there is no requirement for BRD/MCH they are no longer a sub dps class (like tank, healer, dps, support dps). As a result, they don't only compete with each other for a spot, they compete with all dps for a spot.

[s3ystic]

that's entirely my point. There are no required classes like there was with BRD in ARR. Or maybe I'm remembering incorrectly and BRD wasn't 100% required in raids in ARR? Because there is not requirement for BRD/MCH they are no longer a sub dps class (like tank, healer, dps, support dps). As a result, they don't only compete with each other for a spot, they compete with all dps for a spot.

Point made. Endorsed.

[Cetonis]

If you just want to have the maximal DPS, the comp is quite obviously SAM-MNK-NIN-RDM/BLM. Then, if you're worried about having three melee, you take the second caster over MNK or maybe SAM.

Realistically speaking, BRD/MCH still depend on DRG to compete with other jobs. But SE still double-counts the piercing debuff - counting it both as part of the DRG's contributed damage and part of BRD/MCH's contributed damage. When of course, when you bring a DRG+BRD/MCH you only get that damage once.

So as long as that's the case, none of the three can ever be part of the meta speedkill comp, unless one or multiple of them are 'overpowered' within the assumptions that double-counting makes.

That said, for progression, where you're expecting a bunch of mistakes and inefficiencies, taking the dps hit in favor of MP regen is a sound choice, even if not strictly required. And the dps hit is lessened, relatively, since your melee and casters won't be fully optimized in terms of uptime and maxing casts and such.

So most groups will want a BRD or MCH for that reason. But, it'd be silly to take the dps hit twice over, hence it plays out as a "BRD or MCH" slot.

[HoLoFoNo]

But DRG + BRD is stronger than RDM + MNK. The optimal speed comp would be NIN, SAM, DRG, BRD. Actually depending on the buffs BLM got if they do more DPS than SAM then they would replace SAM.

[MomoOG]

If you just want to have the maximal DPS, the comp is quite obviously SAM-MNK-NIN-RDM/BLM. Then, if you're worried about having three melee, you take the second caster over MNK or maybe SAM.

Realistically speaking, BRD/MCH still depend on DRG to compete with other jobs. But SE still double-counts the piercing debuff - counting it both as part of the DRG's contributed damage and part of BRD/MCH's contributed damage. When of course, when you bring a DRG+BRD/MCH you only get that damage once.

So as long as that's the case, none of the three can ever be part of the meta speedkill comp, unless one or multiple of them are 'overpowered' within the assumptions that double-counting makes.

That said, for progression, where you're expecting a bunch of mistakes and inefficiencies, taking the dps hit in favor of MP regen is a sound choice, even if not strictly required. And the dps hit is lessened, relatively, since your melee and casters won't be fully optimized in terms of uptime and maxing casts and such.

So most groups will want a BRD or MCH for that reason. But, it'd be silly to take the dps hit twice over, hence it plays out as a "BRD or MCH" slot.

Well in the personal progression I saw in savage v1/v2 I did not see much use for refresh abilities. When people screwed up and died multiple times (the only situation I can see where resources become an issue), the mechanics simply lead to a wipe more often than not. I literally never saw anyone go resource dry and use of refresh abilities help with progression. Same seems to be case from the videos of savage v3/v4 progression that I have seen. I could be wrong on v3/v4 though.

[Elnidfse]

But DRG + BRD is stronger than RDM + MNK. The optimal speed comp would be NIN, SAM, DRG, BRD. Actually depending on the buffs BLM got if they do more DPS than SAM then they would replace SAM.

I don't see how. DRG got buffed in 4.05 sure but none of the fastest kills before that even took one. While BRD and RDM had solid slots with MNK being in the fastest Susan kills. In the fastest Susan kills there isn't EVEN a BRD. I look forward to fflogs being fixed so we can start extrapolating again.

That said, for progression, where you're expecting a bunch of mistakes and inefficiencies, taking the dps hit in favor of MP regen is a sound choice, even if not strictly required. And the dps hit is lessened, relatively, since your melee and casters won't be fully optimized in terms of uptime and maxing casts and such.

Now that I think on it, wouldn't this just mean RDM compete in that same "spot" that really doesn't exist. I mean their supportive abilities and instant cast revive is some of the strongest "goof up insurance" tools in the game.

[Draxis_Fallspear]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe their raid slot was also unchallenged because many strats too advantage of the fact that they could handle mechanics with little to no DPS downtime because of their mobility.

This was dependant on fight design so it might not apply as much anymore.

[Cetonis]

Now that I think on it, wouldn't this just mean RDM compete in that same "spot" that really doesn't exist. I mean their supportive abilities and instant cast revive is some of the strongest "goof up insurance" tools in the game.

Well, it means that RDM is a better choice than BLM in the one caster slot assuming you are indeed bringing a BRD or MCH.

I know in my own group our BLM main is playing RDM for progression because not-doing that is basically insane. We've gotten so much mileage out of having a swiftres bot, much in the way described in that one reddit thread.

[Elnidfse]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe their raid slot was also unchallenged because many strats too advantage of the fact that they could handle mechanics with little to no DPS downtime because of their mobility.

This was dependant on fight design so it might not apply as much anymore.

Indeed and if this was ARR this would indeed be the case. But most fights have you hugging the boss in relative proximity. And even in situations where there are disengages they don't last long enough to cover that raw DPS gap, making them second fiddle to any real DPS. Not to mention that their support is also directly impacted by the uptime of other jobs.

[HoLoFoNo]

In the 3rd fastest susano kill (2 seconds slower than the joint 1st) they have a BRD but no SAM. DRG is about 100 dps stronger with their buffs, and they also contribute almost double rDPS to that of MNK with a BRD included. The MNK in that kill got like 300 extra balance dps (fair to say, he was padded). Lets say a good DRG does 3800 without balance so around 4.1k with the same amount of balance as the MNK. This is only a difference of 300 DPS. Now the BRD did 3.6k, if he got roughly 3-4% from disembowel alone, they would have gained 108-144 dps. That is almost half the gap already. Now litany + Dragon sight would quite easily close that gap, probably overtaking it. The issue with offensive support though is that is has more moving parts than pure dps, so to calculate contributions it is a lot more of an approximation than hard DPS but you can see where I'm going with this.