Yoshi-P on Tenacity

[aleph_null]

Of course if some players want to continue melding Str or whatever to maximize their DPS, that's fine, but it seems as if players focusing on TEN will be only 2-3 % behind in terms of DPS, and yet have superior passive mitigation and healing capability.

Tenacity won't replace str melds on vit accs though, they won't even come close since 125 str is around 6-7% of the total str we have, while 200 tenacity from 5 melds on the right side gives you 1% dps and 1% mitigation.

The benefit of stacking tenacity will depend on how much we can get, since you need to actually make the healers cast less gcd heals on you to make the extra mitigation convertible into healer dps gain. I'd wait for some more tests to be done on it before concluding how good/bad it is, but at the very least it doesn't look bad considering even its dps component is trailing behind det.

And it's way too "easy" to keep a DPS-stance-full-STR-acc-ignoring-tenacity-tank alive.

It's not that easy to pull it off consistently unless you have healers spamming heals on you all the time. If you make a mistake in mitigation you'd easily drop below what an auto attack could damage you, so the room for error is quite small. It also requires some sort of "cheesing" to have enough mitigation for the whole fight: using lakshmi's vril outside chanchala to mitigate tank buster, while using hallowed ground or holmgang to mitigate the chanchala tank buster, breaking susano's sword before you need to pick up the orbs, so you can save your cds for mitigating auto attacks in the later phase. It's possible yeah, but I wouldn't call it easy. You need skilled tanks and healers, some coordination for mitigation/heals, and high group dps as well.

[Reynhart]

It's not that easy to pull it off consistently unless you have healers spamming heals on you all the time.

I know it's not that easy, simply because healing is not easy even with turtle tanks. That's why I used quotation mark. Yet still, the difference is too small.
Pure tanking tools should have a far greater effect since it's the only thing they're good for.

[aleph_null]

I know it's not that easy, simply because healing is not easy even with turtle tanks. That's why I used quotation mark. Yet still, the difference is too small.
Pure tanking tools should have a far greater effect since it's the only thing they're good for.

Maximizing both the tanks and the healers' dps is nowhere near as easy as turtle tanking or healing a turtle tank. 12k additional hp, 20% passive mitigation or 25% passive hp boost and access to 20% mitigation with 40%+ uptime give you a lot of room for errors both on the tanks' side and on the healers' side. If you think the difference is small you're welcome to try getting susano/lakshmi run in full str gear and 100% dps stance uptime while allowing your healers to get 95% percentile dps.

I get that you don't like maximizing dps as a tank, but shrugging tank dps optimization as something not much harder than doing your average runs with a turtle tank and a perma healer is just laughably ignorant, especially if you probably haven't even tried it.

Apparently what's hard to swallow is that farm status means "optimal play" makes almost no difference.

Optimal play only comes into discussion if your group is interested in doing speedkills or some unusual composition runs. For your usual weekly clears you'd probably not take risky optimizations since wiping would just make you spend more time than slower clears.

[Reynhart]

I get that you don't like maximizing dps as a tank, but shrugging tank dps optimization as something not much harder than doing your average runs with a turtle tank and a perma healer is just laughably ignorant, especially if you probably haven't even tried it.

There's still something you totally ignore. Having tanking tools that are useless is just bad design. Why the hell Tenacity even exists if it doesn't make any noticeable difference ?
Another thing. The purpose of a group is to clear the raid. If maximizing DPS is mandatory to clear, and frankly, judging by how virulent the community is, it seems to be, then it doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, since it's mandatory.

[aleph_null]

There's still something you totally ignore. Having tanking tools that are useless is just bad design. Why the hell Tenacity even exists if it doesn't make any noticeable difference ?
Another thing. The purpose of a group is to clear the raid. If maximizing DPS is mandatory to clear, and frankly, judging by how virulent the community is, it seems to be, then it doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, since it's mandatory.

Look, I never said it was good design that we're even allowed to use last expansion's dps accs or ignore our tank stances completely, or that dps optimization is mandatory to clear. As I mentioned in my reply to dacien, optimization is mostly for speedkills, it's not the norm even for your weekly farms. I just don't get how you could call it "easy" or not much harder than runs with turtle tanks if you've never even attempted it.

I won't insult you or call you bad tank simply because you don't do speedkills or optimize tank/group dps, but I can't say I like it when someone who never does speedkills say that it's easy, considering the amount of effort and time people put into figuring out those optimal rotations and strategies. Same thing for people saying tanking in full slaying accs and 0 tank stance uptime is easy without even trying it. If you haven't even tried it you don't even know if you can do it lol. How do you know that you'd be any different from those "bad" tanks the forums complain about, those "meta sheeps" who put on slaying gear, pull in dps stance and get mashed by a tank buster 10 sec into the pull. Yeah sure they're probably biting more than what they can chew, but at least they have tried and you haven't. They now know how hard/easy it is, you don't.