The Issue With SAM - Being Top DPS isn't a Crime

[Pikana]

I was going to make a straight post, but:

The text that you have entered is too long (10021 characters). Please shorten it to 1000 characters long.

Instead I will summarize it here, and put more details in the following Google Doc

SAM being top DPS isn't a bad thing. It is a selfish DPS job (which is healthy) and it needs to be worthy of its slot, especially due to the investment that's not there when you spread your damage around and thus suffer less from 1 person under performing. But then you remove the contributed DPS and see the raw numbers and SAM ends up scaring people by being so high. It just needs healthy competition. BLM is that job. Another selfish DPS. Magic SAM if you will. The issue is there is no competition there.

[Pikana]

1. Raw Damage: Simply put, ignoring all else SAM does more damage than BLM. As long as BLM passes SAM in another field.
2. Phase Changes: And also invuln phases and disengaging due to mechanics. Simply put: Sen and Kenkai have no timer. Enochian has a very tight timer when you lose control (cinematic/stun/etc) and you can't Transpose. This is also fine if the damage wasn't so much higher than BLM's. Can be fine if the 3rd field compensates.
3. Party Composition: There are 3 general comps. Blanket Comp: No unique synergies. The 'Raw Damage' of comps as all that matters is who puts out a higher number and nothing else. SAM wins. Magic Comp: Read the doc for a detailed reason why Magic Comps can't exist. SAM wins. Physical Comp: There exists 4 general Physical Comps that works. One includes RDM. RDM isn't in Magic Comps. That's a problem with 5 Physical DPS and 2 Magic DPS ignoring SAM and BLM. The 5 viable comps are all SAM focused with no room for BLM in any.

[Pikana]

So basically, SAM is fine if there's healthy competition in the Selfish Slot from BLM. That can be done by either buffing BLM's damage (needs to be higher than SAM seeing #2 and #3), making BLM less punishing on phase changes (I don't want this) or SAM more punishing on phase changes (not needed if you fix #1 or #3), or make it so party comps revolving around a BLM with Magic Buffs (and debuffs) are viable. BLM being better raw damage than SAM would make it a shoe-in for Blanket Comps while SAM gets Physical Comps if only damage is changed. I'm sure if BLM and SAM were both sitting up there with comparable DPS after everything is factored in and party comps had an even number of SAMs in the selfish slot as BLMs do, then people wouldn't be complaining as much, I'm sure of it.

[Blanchimont]

The problem I have with SAM is that SAM feels like what MNK should have been in the first place. Being top DPS isn't a crime, but sacrificing one class to make another might be. The three Getsu, Ka, and Zetsu sort of function like Greased Lightning with a bonus effect being part of each of the three skill chains. The bonuses are one being speed, one being damage, and one being a defense down (basically a second damage buff, but better). The three combined essentially are Greased Lightning 3 if not better. They are also far easier to trigger and requires less skills to activate. They last far longer than Greased Lightning, making it easier to generate and maintain over the course of a battle. They have a vastly superior version of Tornado Kick that deals more damage than the Forbidden Chakra and is easier to meet the conditions to use. The only downside is that their Area of Effect attacks have insane TP costs, making them harder to sustain. Being top DPS isn't a crime, but sacrificing what should have been improvements to the MNK to create the SAM should be a crime.

Could you imagine Tornado Kick as a cooldown skill usable only at GL3? What an improvement that would have been. The same goes for the Forbidden Chakra.

[silentwindfr]

it's more they don't know what to do with the monk, since they have focus the combo evolution into the drg, that they are scared to increase the speed of the monk by adding more gl (was said today...)
the trouble is not the sam, more the dev that have a trouble with the monk we can see them try stuff like with riddle of earth that is clearly a tank skill that we don't need.

and i will not restart this talk, blm must'nt be at the same level or better than sam in terms of dps, the balance will be shattered and it will be the total inverse but in worst. meaning people will only use blm/rdm/brd as dps role, because playing caster is safer and if they dish the same dps than melee no reason to bring liability that can jeopardize the success of the mission. when ranged will take less damage and less risk...

[KalinOrthos]

Much like BLM, SAM is an easy class to play but harder to maximize. Sure, your Kenki and Sen don't deplete, but your combos will fall off after a time, as will Kaiten if not used. It's also extremely easy to mismanage your Kenki and leave you completely starved for damage. That's not making excuses for Samurai's high damage, that's just saying the comparison to BLM and SAM is more apt tham one may realize.

Should BLM outclass SAM, or even match in terms of straight numbers? I don't think so, no. But should BLM be closer to SAM than it is? Definitely. BLM has the added benefit of less downtime than SAM, due to lots of melee based AoEs that aren't a problem for casters, and isn't required to position their attacks correctly, as Samurai are required to do for maximum Kenki.

[Elnidfse]

Should BLM outclass SAM, or even match in terms of straight numbers? I don't think so, no. But should BLM be closer to SAM than it is? Definitely. BLM has the added benefit of less downtime than SAM, due to lots of melee based AoEs that aren't a problem for casters

Let's our current end game raids and all the melee based aoe's. Let's list how many of them don't also affect casters
Every single one of Susans AOES.
Lakshmi's draw, push, and stacks
V1's close ranged fire balls (1) which lead into long range fireballs (-1)
V2's tentacles. The tank also has to move as everybody else is moving into the safezone. Special mention to his aoe that requires a safespot, which everybody has to move to again
V3's friggin everything.
V4 requires movement for almost every single mechanic excluding void thunder 3.

Let's play this game in reverse. Let's list a game where we point out where SAM can keep attacking when BLM can not

Susan: Moving for puddles, gap closing immediately, attacking more relatively after having to play left right
Lakshmi: BLM's current best fight (+1) relatively
V1: knock backs, sliding ice, lightning bolts,
V2: moving to avoid tentacles, moving to safe zones,
V3: Attacking while moving to slots. Avoiding Aoe. Moving behind boss to avoid AoE
V4: Moving when he void casts blizzard. Moving when he casts flare. Moving when he casts fire 3. Moving when he casts blizzard 3. Moving when he jumps. Moving close when he's about to knockback.


Where in V4 does a caster get "less" downtime than SAM. No I seriously dare you. Point out at any point of any end game fight right now that isn't Lakshmi (MAYBE) where BLM gets to attack more often than SAM. I dare you. I'll seriously wait.

[Alisi]

I was going to make a straight post, but:

The text that you have entered is too long (10021 characters). Please shorten it to 1000 characters long.

This is just an aside. You can have your posts be any length. You just have to post it then edit it. Editing bypasses the 1000 chara length.

[silentwindfr]

elnidfse, you forget to take in account the lack of position respect that is a net loose of dps on suzanoo when you are forced to gather or be behind it.
the fact that the add phase of lakshmi force you to run around what the blm don't need to do

you are there asking for something that will not happend dude... blm have his role and his dps will get a slight buff but nothing much... don't expect to be top dps with melee that like this it was explain, a ranged that will outdps the melee will shatter the balance of the group, less danger to bring a full team of ranged than bring a melee that is affected by many mechanic, recquire more management for get the top dps.

plus some fight will be more tailored for a type of dps and other less... we can talk about garuda extrem if you want...where ranged was far better than melee dps. since they was able to shoot them attack throught twister. allowing them to ignore part of the mechanic of the fight.

we can talk of the first boss of alexander if you want too? where you had only to move for get far from the missile outside this generally it was melee that was running around... honestly, ranged have often more facility in fight than melee....

i will repeat it one more time, ranged will never and must'nt be at the same level than a top melee dps. if you want to be top dps, play melee, if you want a very strong dps, but at the same time less dangerous, play ranged that how it work. complain about the fact that you must move when your spell hit harder than most of our attack is kinda... how say it.... ridiculous.

the recent blm movement for be top dps need to stop now, it's tiring and prove only one thing, a lot of you don't understand the less thing from balance in general.

[Elnidfse]

*snip*

To save both our times I'm not going to waste the effort. Quite sorry.