Yoshi-P on Tenacity

[Alistaire]

I was thinking that had to be a mistranslation. But there's still that line "I believe players will be able to feel the effects of tenacity once the Savage mode of Omega launches next week."

...which if they're not changing how it works, yeah that's not gonna happen.

[mcspamm]

I was thinking that had to be a mistranslation. But there's still that line "I believe players will be able to feel the effects of tenacity once the Savage mode of Omega launches next week."

...which if they're not changing how it works, yeah that's not gonna happen.

He could be referring to players gearing up in i340 gear, which will be available from savage starting next week.

That could be a turning point with breakpoints that shift stat priorities, possibly making Tenacity more desirable.

[Zfz]

I was thinking that had to be a mistranslation. But there's still that line "I believe players will be able to feel the effects of tenacity once the Savage mode of Omega launches next week."

...which if they're not changing how it works, yeah that's not gonna happen.

I'm not up to date on tank gear itemization, but is there any other secondary stat that adds survivability? His statement could be made to say that Savage is going to be so savage on tanks that you'd be looking for every tiny bit of survivability you can hope to get, and that means you'd even want Tenacity.

In that case, I don't see how there's a conflict.

[Yorumi]

I'm not up to date on tank gear itemization, but is there any other secondary stat that adds survivability? His statement could be made to say that Savage is going to be so savage on tanks that you'd be looking for every tiny bit of survivability you can hope to get, and that means you'd even want Tenacity.

I'm hoping to be surprised but I doubt it. Everything in this expansion has been much easier than HW, why would that suddenly change? Especially since we already have people whining about how savage gordias was too hard.

[Dregenfox]

I'm hoping to be surprised but I doubt it. Everything in this expansion has been much easier than HW, why would that suddenly change? Especially since we already have people whining about how savage gordias was too hard.

I believe the initial content was made easier to allow players to get used to the major class changes/skill rebalances. The end-goal of all this simplification was to eventually make harder content, so I'm hoping that's the plan for the next patch release.

[Praesul]

Here's some relevant information on tenacity for those that think it "scales terribly"

And something a user pointed out: "People just need to look at these lines together.
Determination gives 1% bonus damage for every 170 points
Tenacity is still inconclusive, giving estimates between 180 to 220 per 1% bonus damage.
Tenacity is estimated to be not that far from Determination, and Determination is generally seen in a neutral to slightly positive light right now."

It requires slightly more points than determination to be an equal damage increase, but ALSO decreases the damage you take. And then comparing it to Direct Hit...
"Correct me if I'm wrong here, but assuming 39.09 rating per 1% chance to DH, and 190 rating per 1% tenacity (midpoint of where the post said it would be), 18 slots at 40 rating per slot (current gear).
40*18=720 rating
720/39.09*.25=~4.6% damage from direct hit.
720/190=~3.79% damage and 3.79% damage reduction?
So if we, for arguments sake, say that a tank puts DH in every slot, or tenacity in every slot, they would give up ~0.8% damage for 3.8% damage reduction?"

[DWolfwood]

snip

It's going to be a little bit more than that if we're going by the accepted 200 = 1% for Tenacity.

That being said, the main argument people have is that a small percentage of mitigation is pretty inconsequential when you look at how we take damage in this game. There's multiple factors going into this like overhealing, etc.

I think Tenacity will end up being buffed slightly eventually. They clearly didn't intend for tanks to even consider Direct Hit based on the previous Live Letters.

[Cadmus]

So if we, for arguments sake, say that a tank puts DH in every slot, or tenacity in every slot, they would give up ~0.8% damage for 3.8% damage reduction?"

520 is the most you can meld on left-side. Nobody is going to meld anything but STR on right-side.

520 tenacity = about 2.5% dmg reduction. 520 Dhit would give you about 1% more DPS over 520 Tenacity.

Tanks choosing 1% more dps over 2.5% more def is a no-brainer. How often did you ever get down to 2.5% health in a raid and live? If you ever gotten that low it's cuz your healers are both dead and you're about to wipe.
And healers overheal. Whether you're at 80% health (no tenacity) or 82.5% health (tenacity), you're goin to be healed to 100% anyway in the next Cure II.

So 2.5% dmg reduction isn't necessary or being utilized all the time if ever at all.

Meanwhile 1% more dmg is always being used.

A 2.5% stat with less than 1% use, or a 1% stat with 100% up-time are the choices.

The only way Tenacity will ever be a go-to stat is if it's an exponential increase variable. The more you have, the more potent it becomes. And if future tank gear is filled with it so you can hit 2,500+ tenacity with melds.

[Praesul]

520 is the most you can meld on left-side. Nobody is going to meld anything but STR on right-side.

520 tenacity = about 2.5% dmg reduction. 520 Dhit would give you about 1% more DPS over 520 Tenacity.

Tanks choosing 1% more dps over 2.5% more def is a no-brainer. How often did you ever get down to 2.5% health in a raid and live? If you ever gotten that low it's cuz your healers are both dead and you're about to wipe.
And healers overheal. Whether you're at 80% health (no tenacity) or 82.5% health (tenacity), you're goin to be healed to 100% anyway in the next Cure II.

So 2.5% dmg reduction isn't necessary or being utilized all the time if ever at all.

Meanwhile 1% more dmg is always being used.

A 2.5% stat with less than 1% use, or a 1% stat with 100% up-time are the choices.

The only way Tenacity will ever be a go-to stat is if it's an exponential increase variable. The more you have, the more potent it becomes. And if future tank gear is filled with it so you can hit 2,500+ tenacity with melds.

It doesn't HAVE to be an amazing stat. There will always be a worst stat, I'm not trying to say that I think it's better than DH, but I'm just saying that it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than parry ever was. If I get tenacity instead of det or skillspeed? Right on. If I get some instead of DH or crit? Oh well, it's not a huge deal.

People are overreacting, and tenacity does not need a buff (but I wouldn't be against a buff if they ever decide to, though :P)

[aleph_null]

The only way Tenacity will ever be a go-to stat is if it's an exponential increase variable. The more you have, the more potent it becomes. And if future tank gear is filled with it so you can hit 2,500+ tenacity with melds.

But it is? Well, technically not exponential, but it gets stronger the more you stack it. If let's say 100 ten gives you 1% reduction from base dmg, and you take 10k dmg, adding 100 ten from base, you'd reduce it to 9900, adding 100 ten to 1000 ten would be reducing 9000 dmg to 8900. It's still a 100 reduction but going from 9000 to 8900 is relatively stronger than going from 10000 to 9900.

People need to understand that while linear/additive dmg boost is worse than multiplicative dmg boost, linear/additive dmg reduction is better than multiplicative. Tenacity, if we assume it to reduce dmg linearly, doesn't suffer from the diminishing returns stacking mitigation cds has.