MCH vs BRD (And why MCH need serious help)

[EdwinLi]

I guess some people need to believe they could beat technology/guns with traditional weapon

It is kind of funny in a way that most of the time in other game Gun jobs are the most broken High DPS OP Job in their game which is why more often a certain amount of players would be against introducing Gun Job/class in that certain game because they're often Brokenly OP.

There are often two ways a Gun Job/class ends up in a game being either Brokenly OP or Brokenly weak.

Here we are getting the latter version which is brokenly weaker than all other Jobs in the game.

This issue often happens due to how common it is for developers to actually create a balanced class/job for a Gun user for some reason.

[Fannah]

Can I have some exemples? I'm not the kind of spamming all MMO I can cross (just in case, I'm not saying you are).

Ragnarök Online : Gunslingers were known to be a very disappointing class and not needed in any content.
FFXIV : Except for doing records, the game is easy enough to accept every jobs if the players are good enough. And machinists were often seen as bad except around the end of HW.

I spoke with plenty of people about that, and I've crossed more often people against the gun classes because they feel they are not welcomed in the heroic fantasy environment when it wasn't even in the game at 1rst. It was nothing about the "balance" around such classes just because devs would feel they "have to" make them broken.

Anyway, it still makes some people dream. Just look at all those "I'm a samurai parrying a bullet / cutting it in half / I'm dodging every bullets" etc. Don't tell me it's not a fantasy shown a lot.

When we look at some wars in history, we can hear about some sad moments when some great countries met other ones and lost a lot of soldiers before they realized they had no chance against those guns as they didn't have them yet.

[EdwinLi]

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A lot of it are often in Action combat style MMOs where players can make themselves very mobile to completel avoid attacks while conituously dish out damage such as C9 and Aion.

Game such as FF14 can't really do that because of the gameplay design.

[Elnidfse]

Don't forget the gunfu in PSO II

[Fannah]

It is kind of funny in a way that most of the time in other game Gun jobs are the most broken High DPS OP Job in their game

It may be funny if you take my statement this way, but I was speaking about the overall fantasy of beating gunslingers with traditionnal weapons, not only in video games. It does exists and is way more shown overall than an (almost) inexisting fantasy of beating traditional weapon wielder with a gun as it's just realistic making it too obvious and then unfair/boring.

It's obvious we may cross games where guns are stronger, and others where they are weaker. It's all about design and numbers. But I dislike having someone coming and being kinda like "lol it's the opposite" when beating traditional weapon wielder with a gun is not a fantasy but just realistic.

"Brokenly OP" = bad design = bad game. I don't get why you should even talk about bad games here (I know they are well-known, but still bad games if what you tell me is true).

(At least, brokenly weak can be fixed but is not supposed to break the game as the class can be ignored. It even is sometimes used to remove a class/character from a game without officially removing it while they are working on a solution to remake the class).

[EdwinLi]

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I talk about these things because if there is one thing I learned when it comes to Gun Jobs in majority of MMO/RPG/MMORPG, from my personal experience, is that Gun Jobs are often the most difficult Job to Balance.

They either end up Brokenly OP or Brokenly weak usually with all attempts to fix the Gun Job either considered made them too powerful or too weak but never make it to the actual "balance" players are looking for thus Gun Jobs are forever considered Broken in some way.

Honestly, I think the reason why this commonly happens is because Fantasy theme Jobs in a Fantasy game is far more easier to Balance design wise because they can slap on any "magic" reasoning behind the actions but with Technology theme Jobs such as Machinist Job they must follow a certain rule that often restrict developers in areas that would normally be filled by "magic" as the logic behind certain abilities and actions.

But I dislike having someone coming and being kinda like "lol it's the opposite" when beating traditional weapon wielder with a gun is not a fantasy but just realistic.

I am also sorry if you interpreted my comment this way but I am not saying this as I serious hate it when the Gun Job is never Balanced and either end up Broknely OP or Brokenly Weak. I only commented on your comment because it reminded me why I expect Machinist to have serious Balance issues.

I truely wish for Machinist to meet a actual Balance for FF14 so it is neither Brokenly OP nor Brokenly Weak but sadly past experience has taught me that Gun Jobs are destined to never meet that "Balance" point and are forever either Brokenly OP or Brokenly Weak no matter what Game they end up in.

At worst case scenario we should probably expect MCH to be forever stuck at the bottom of the Barrel for the rest of FF14 life due to bad design choices.

Best case, the developers decide to find a way to adjust Machinist without it breaking something.

[Heimdalgc]

Sad. OF bans them now

[Cetonis]

People do that when they're upset about something. I don't find it that surprising. And I should note that this goes both ways. Disingenuous arguments that is. As unless I'm mistaken you're under the impression that BRD is equally as punishing to execution and encounters as MCH is.

Whatever the case is: Thank you for your thought out post on Direct Hit. I would be lying if I said I'm sold.... At 15% we have x(1+0.25(15/100)) you would indeed be a 3.75%. So let's look at the hypothetical 20%. x(1+0.25(20/100) At that point you're doing 5% over your norm. If you add 15% on top of that. That is to say x(1+0.25(35/100)) it's 8.75% on top of your norm. That means that unless you're above 85% direct hit. You will always receive a relative 3.75% increase to damage. Unless I'm wrong, because of the static nature of it's damage, it's extremely easy to math out the increases. Again if i'm wrong please feel free to shed some light on the situation.

On DHit, if the question you're asking is "how much of a boost is +15% DHit?", then you have to base your answer on how much damage the recipient is doing before that +15%. Say their base, zero DHit dps is 3,000. With ~780 added DHit stat, they get a 20% DHit rate and now their dps is 3,150. If you want to know how much of a boost another +15% DHit is, what you care about is how much it increases the 3,150, not how much it increases a theoretical 3,000 that isn't what's actually happening. And 3,262.5 dps is a 3.57 percent increase over that 3,150.

On mechanics vs. getting tripped up, I'm mainly saying that I'm not going to take your (or any MCH alarmist's) word for it over the word of the Machinists I know who think such claims are nonsense. You haven't played Bard, or any other high level dps it seems, and in listing MCH concerns (both here and on the reddit) you haven't expressed anything all that compelling relative to what other dps (including Bard) need to deal with. I can't claim with certainty that one or the other has it worse, having not played MCH myself, but I've little cause to believe it's MCH.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Biggest difference is this:

While dealing with mechanics, a MCH has to be mindful not to overheat, not to reload at the wrong time, hope they aren't forced to move if and when they use Flamethrower, and make full use of what they've got when trying to burst -again, hoping for no mechanical interruption. Let's use Susano as an example. You set up Wildfire, then you get targeted for the lightning mechanic when you can't move. Or gaoled. Or the churning waters mechanic. So you stop. . . there goes your wildfire. Perhaps you just used Barrel Stabilizer, but a teammate doesn't move for lightning and you die. Upon revival, too bad. BS on cooldown.

BRD simply does not have nearly the same issues. At the worst you miss a proc, but you're hardly down anything really valuable to use at length, meanwhile your core ability to deal dmage is in no way hindered by your own kit in any way. Missing/not playing a song hardly impacts your damage output. You don't have to work your way up to a given value to deal your damage, nor do you have to constantly manage being there (lest you be forced back to square one). There may be alarmists, but there are legit disparities between the two that really causes unnecessary complications to playing MCH.

[LastDream]

Is there a slight chance they bring the DoT back? They seriously need it :/
It's also annoying they moved to cross-skill lots of MCH's ogcd and without damage now, the job feels so rigid 1-2-3 like 2.0 PLD...