Hissatsu: Seigan should reduce enmity

[Lambdafish]

Tank enmity got raised in 4.01, that was the solution.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

^basically the reason this is being asked for.

Nah. Tanks can get good and actually learn how to tank instead of crying foul. There's nothing wrong with SAM's enmity gen, an enmity dump would just deincentivize using Seigan because frequently when I proc it, I'm countering raid wide attacks, and frequently get at least 10-20 in a single encounter. Seigan as is is fine... though I wouldn't be opposed to upping the potency slightly.

[Kabooa]

"Holding hate is too easy"

"If your hate is too high it's your fault!"

Whattafaq tanks?

[Lambdafish]

Whattafaq tanks?

Both statements can be true at the same time. A competent tank doesnt want enmity on a silver platter, we want to be able to focus on our job, the same way a healer might want healing to be harder so that they don't have to fall back on DPS all the time. On the flip side, DPS also need to watch their enmity, and with more tools to control enmity (shirk, diversion, shadewalker), enmity management has become much more of a group activity. A lazy DPS that doesn't manage their own enmity should be pulling hate and die, and tanks should have a more difficult time tanking.

To the OP, if diversion isn't being used then we should be promoting its use, not dumbing down the enmity generation game again.

[Verius_Nox]

^basically the reason this is being asked for.

Then the tank should Shirk them and watch them die. Two can play that game.

[Kalocin]

Then the tank should Shirk them and watch them die. Two can play that game.

Yep, I do my job really well and there's little chance you're going to pull threat off me but if someone gives me that attitude then I definitely will shirk them or let them die.

Doing good dps and lowering enmity too are both part of being a DPS as much as keeping enmity and doing damage as a tank is. Diversion is essentially an indirect DPS buff for tanks. (What, you want me to just use my power slash combo permanently? I can effectively drop all my dps and make the dungeon go slower if you'd like).

If you're not reducing your enmity intentionally, then you are not playing the role properly and just a bad dps. Just like a tank that only uses his enmity combo.

[Inuk9]

Yeah! Reduce emnity, increase defense and insta kill any enemy. let's make SAM even better.

Diversion? what is this?

[aleph_null]

On the flip side, DPS also need to watch their enmity, and with more tools to control enmity (shirk, diversion, shadewalker), enmity management has become much more of a group activity.

To the OP, if diversion isn't being used then we should be promoting its use, not dumbing down the enmity generation game again.

I actually think it's a good thing that the devs moved some "extra" responsibilities to dps, including enmity management and group mitigation (apoc, palisade, addle, feint), so even if some dps rotations/playstyles are simplified compared to 3.x they have new things to think about. Better yet, these utilities (including the new mp/tp refreshes of brd/mch) don't cause dps loss, so they're essentially "free" (depends on your role action choices) and in high level contents they'll be expected to be able to use them properly. Now dps players should be aware of their enmity as well as mitigation utilities (tank buster and raid aoe timings) on top of their own dps rotations.

[Kabooa]

You guys do realize Diversion has both a cooldown and a reduced effect as the fight goes on, right?

Diversion cannot be used continuously, and reducing half your threat generation for 15 seconds -means nothing- if the fight lasts longer than 2 minutes. Monk and Samurai do not have -threat dumps-. If the Samurai is riding your ass -they cannot do a thing about it-. Diversion was likely already used, or wouldn't even matter in this case.

Shirking them for something -literally out of their control- for -doing their job- is not the answer.

The answer is putting out more threat.

And this is not only easily doable with Vit, but inexcusable with Strength. The gain in DPS a tank gets is not worth throttling an actual DPS class, especially if that class doesn't have an actual threat dump.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Then the tank should Shirk them and watch them die. Two can play that game.

So rather than be a good tank, you'd rather punish the dps for doing a great job? I mean, I guess I could always just 1-2-3 1-2-3 and ignore my role as a DPS, but the only reason to ever shirk a DPS is if they keep pulling, in which case all you're doing is being a good OT and helping them hold hate.

But nah, abuse the dps that's doing their job so they just AFK auto attack, sure I'll do that as you wish, master~