Hissatsu: Seigan should reduce enmity

[Verius_Nox]

Why should the class receive something extra because players are refusing to use the tools given?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

NO. It's fun as hell to be nipping at the tanks heels! One of my favorite moments playing SAM was ripping off my BiS STR SwO tank friend in an expert roulette and forcing him to use extra aggro combos to keep the hate off me. :c It's supremely gratifying to push the hate so hard. Incidentally I gave up on Diversion because even on MCH I never see tanks leave tank stance, so I just slot in more utility because Diversion is useless if they aren't dps stancing.

[ValentineSnow]

NO. It's fun as hell to be nipping at the tanks heels! One of my favorite moments playing SAM was ripping off my BiS STR SwO tank friend in an expert roulette and forcing him to use extra aggro combos to keep the hate off me. :c It's supremely gratifying to push the hate so hard. Incidentally I gave up on Diversion because even on MCH I never see tanks leave tank stance, so I just slot in more utility because Diversion is useless if they aren't dps stancing.

^basically the reason this is being asked for.

I kind of agree purely because seigan is a defensive stance where the attacker limits their offense to put themselves in a position where they can step back from enemy attacks. As it is right now it's just a counter attack that only increases offense, pretty much the exact opposite of what seigan stance is.

Why should the class receive something extra because players are refusing to use the tools given?

Is it something extra though? I never really understood SE reasoning on this one, mnk and sam, the dps that generate huge amounts of enmity from pure damage have no enmity control, while nin and drg, the dps that generate less enmity from doing less damage that they make up for by boosting other people's damage (namely the mnk and sams) get enmity dumps?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

^basically the reason this is being asked for.

Nah. Tanks can get good and actually learn how to tank instead of crying foul. There's nothing wrong with SAM's enmity gen, an enmity dump would just deincentivize using Seigan because frequently when I proc it, I'm countering raid wide attacks, and frequently get at least 10-20 in a single encounter. Seigan as is is fine... though I wouldn't be opposed to upping the potency slightly.

[Verius_Nox]

^basically the reason this is being asked for.

Then the tank should Shirk them and watch them die. Two can play that game.

[Kalocin]

Then the tank should Shirk them and watch them die. Two can play that game.

Yep, I do my job really well and there's little chance you're going to pull threat off me but if someone gives me that attitude then I definitely will shirk them or let them die.

Doing good dps and lowering enmity too are both part of being a DPS as much as keeping enmity and doing damage as a tank is. Diversion is essentially an indirect DPS buff for tanks. (What, you want me to just use my power slash combo permanently? I can effectively drop all my dps and make the dungeon go slower if you'd like).

If you're not reducing your enmity intentionally, then you are not playing the role properly and just a bad dps. Just like a tank that only uses his enmity combo.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Then the tank should Shirk them and watch them die. Two can play that game.

So rather than be a good tank, you'd rather punish the dps for doing a great job? I mean, I guess I could always just 1-2-3 1-2-3 and ignore my role as a DPS, but the only reason to ever shirk a DPS is if they keep pulling, in which case all you're doing is being a good OT and helping them hold hate.

But nah, abuse the dps that's doing their job so they just AFK auto attack, sure I'll do that as you wish, master~

[Verius_Nox]

So rather than be a good tank, you'd rather punish the dps for doing a great job? I mean, I guess I could always just 1-2-3 1-2-3 and ignore my role as a DPS, but the only reason to ever shirk a DPS is if they keep pulling, in which case all you're doing is being a good OT and helping them hold hate.

But nah, abuse the dps that's doing their job so they just AFK auto attack, sure I'll do that as you wish, master~

Think you totally misinterpreted the cause of the action. If you're purposely not utilizing Diversion, and trying to actively pull threat from the tank, then you're just being a hindrance. The overall team could pull off more DPS if you used Diversion, allowing the tank to safely use their higher potency combos.

But I mean, feel free to be a dick. Like I said, two can play that game.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

But I mean, feel free to be a dick. Like I said, two can play that game.

Incidentally I gave up on Diversion because even on MCH I never see tanks leave tank stance, so I just slot in more utility because Diversion is useless if they aren't dps stancing.

Or you could try reading? Using Diversion in exchange of other more useful utility is borderline worthless on a tank that insists on camping 24/7 in tank stance. It's a more logical use to instead slot in different utility like goad or Feint to help the healers or actual dps out then take something that a tank would get no benefit from.

None of this even touches on the fact that Diversion is next to worthless on a SAM due to their opening burst being well into the first minute of the fight, not the first fifteen seconds, where the tank would actually struggle in the first place.

And that is the point where I'd just Shirk you, and laugh.

It's fun, right?

Sure, great fun. I'd just be rezzed and casually watch a 90 second fight turn into a 5 minute crawl cause you chose to punish the one dps that's actually doing their job. I'll be laughing while grabbing a drink~ After all, if good performance is punished, obviously all I should do is chat, right?

Good performance means nothing if you're purposely being a hindrance. For every player that's like you, there's another who plays just as well, but also thinks about more than just themselves.

Sure thing Champ! I'm sure there's an overabundance of quality dps, right? Not like there's a reason the Duty Finder thread exist. Honestly, as a tank, I'd be infinitely more impressed if a dps COULD even come close to my enmity in DPS stance. Have yet to see it happen in five years.

[Shurrikhan]

If anything, shouldn't the enmity decrease be attached to Yaten instead?

Though I'd prefer it be attached to neither, of course—or even have an enmity increase on Seigan and a less laughable Third Eye effect—and for SE to simply fix tank AP scaling.

I kind of agree purely because seigan is a defensive stance where the attacker limits their offense to put themselves in a position where they can step back from enemy attacks. As it is right now it's just a counter attack that only increases offense, pretty much the exact opposite of what seigan stance is.

A riposte is a counterattack.
A zwercchau a high horizontal strike poised on a raise palm that strikes with the false edge and would be ineffective anywhere but to the neck or eyes with a sword as light as a rapier.
Redoublement is a direct return to a parried or otherwise displaced line of attack.
Unchained lacks the CC-break of its shared recast ability, Inner Release.

We're expecting sensible naming from this game, still?