Standings of Black Mage, Red Mage, and Summoner

[IllyriaKnotfred]

Nonsense.

Oh? Well, please then by all means show me some in game reference or conversation involving Black Mages that even remotely hint as the ability to control life forces.

[Kabooa]

Oh? Well, please then by all means show me some in game reference or conversation involving Black Mages that even remotely hint as the ability to control life forces.

Mind alteration magic. Manipulation of void energy / creatures which in turn can animate a body.

Like, the actual breadth of 'Black Magic' in this game is pretty wide-reaching. -Thaumaturgy- is the art focused on destructive magic, Black Magic just amps it up to 11 while also allowing for a slew of other things.

Edit: Also, the original thread was how to shore up this 'imbalance' of the three mages, which in my opinion, is basically just crying over slightly spread out milk.

The lack of a raise, however, is a legitimate concern if DPS mages are just all going to get it moving forward (There is literally zero reason for the Red Mage to have it) Put rather simply, the Black Mage lacking a Raise-type ability is a hindrance that now no longer makes sense if DPS-type mages moving forward are going to get a version, but the primary reason they -don't- is because Black Mages don't care about MP.

Which is why a timed, cooldown, last-hurrah style ability is one method to shore this up. It prevents them from being able to just spam raise a raid, while being able to bring that utility with its own twist.

[IllyriaKnotfred]

Dancing around the question

So no in game reference to being able to animate life forces? I stand by my point.

[Kabooa]

So no in game reference to being able to animate life forces? I stand by my point.

If you mean directly altering life forces like healing, then the original 1.0 Thaumaturge did that. The girl from the Conjurer questline is basically doing that (Sapping her own life force to give it to another)

http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter

[Greedalox]

If you mean directly altering life forces like healing, then the original 1.0 Thaumaturge did that. The girl from the Conjurer questline is basically doing that (Sapping her own life force to give it to another)

http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter

That's Sylphie and you're in reference to the infusion of life through the use of the 3 white magics that THM and BLM have no access to. Sylphie and her mom (Who died from it) weren't using all 3 white magics with the exception of (Earth?) and were using their own essence to heal.

That's white magic which is about as polar opposite to THM and BLM as it gets.

[Kabooa]

That's Sylphie and you're in reference to the infusion of life through the use of the 3 white magics that THM and BLM have no access to. Sylphie and her mom (Who died from it) weren't using all 3 white magics with the exception of (Earth?) and were using their own essence to heal.

That's white magic which is about as polar opposite to THM and BLM as it gets.

Yes, because those skills don't fit in the 'holy trinity' shift 2.0 took. The fact is the foundation existed there in terms of it 'making sense' in relation to Thaumaturgy and by extension Black Mages.

If you want a bluntly contemporary model, then Drain.

At some point, the 'destructive' part of Drain turns into healing magic, which is again, 'altering life forces'.

[Greedalox]

Yes, because those skills don't fit in the 'holy trinity' shift 2.0 took. The fact is the foundation existed there in terms of it 'making sense' in relation to Thaumaturgy and by extension Black Mages.

If you want a bluntly contemporary model, then Drain.

At some point, the 'destructive' part of Drain turns into healing magic, which is again, 'altering life forces'.

It just sounds like reaching. Like Michael Jordan in Space Jam reaching.

[Ethalio]

quotequotequote

To me it seems you haven't played any other FF game before.

Raise:
I'll cite from the Final Fantasy Wiki and FFXIClopedia, taken from the Raise spell page. (I just took the games with a Job system btw):
FFI: "can be learned by the White Mage, White Wizard, and Red Wizard job classes"
FFIII: "can be used by White Mages, Devouts, Red Mages, and Sages."
FFV: "Raise is a level 3 White Magic ability that can be used by White Mages and Red Mages."
FFXI: Jobs: "Level 25 White Mage | Level 35 Scholar | Level 38 Red Mage | Level 50 Paladin"

Drain:
FFIII: "Drain is a Black Magic level 7 spell"
FFV: "Drain is a level 4 Black Magic spell."
FFXI: "Drain is a Dark Magic spell available to Dark Knights, Black Mages, Geomancers and Scholars." In FFXI black magic is categorized in elemental, dark, enfeebliing and enhancing magic.

To sum it up: Raise has always been a white magic spell traditionally available to WHM and RDM. Drain has always been a black magic spell available to BLM. IMO no further discussion is needed on that topic

[Kabooa]

Stuff

Except this is FF14, and the game clearly has a baseline for Thaumaturges being capable of healing magic. The reason it was removed wasn't a lore standpoint, but a class balance one, because having a high DPS class capable of party healing didn't work.

By your logic, Summoners shouldn't have access to a Raise type spell, but they do.

[Galvuu]

snip

According to the lore, actually, Black Magic precedes thaumaturgy.
The latter appeared due to the old Belah'dian/Sil'dihan issue with the zombies- someone had to take care of the dead (ritualistic magic on the corpses so they wouldn't go on a zombie rampage like the one that destroyed Sil'Dih).

Black Magic is Mhachi- you have Void Magic, siphoning power/aether from the Void to channel magical implements/destructive spells, and Shantotto's version of it (that we use), which uses the aether surrounding us and our own aether combined (which is why lesser mages burned to death trying to channel Enochian fire) to fuel the ultimate destructive spells (she's always ranting about "arts of destruction").

I doubt any healing/raising abilities fit BLM thematically in the world of FF14.