Lets stop fighting SE and work with them. What are your ideas?

[Zojha]

So given the situation and knowing that SE won't give us str back, in your opinion what could SE do to fix things?

With that premise, changing their attitude would be a good first step.

[Mostly_Raxus]

cant wait to be sat as a tank because the grp wants 1 tank and 5 dps in savage... :/

[Duelle]

cant wait to be sat as a tank because the grp wants 1 tank and 5 dps in savage... :/

You can design fights that require two tanks, either via swaps, adds that will train the healers without that second tank, or two boss mobs that need to be tanked. Also things like Hateful Strike.

that was no ordinary det down when your damage was like 20%. Figuratively, though they just do flat damage output and heal output for the duration of the weakness.

This is a pretty good idea. I can support this if the intent is to make tank damage scale with VIT.

your other suggestion i agree with, especially with gameplay/thematics where each tank can do well in areas, they just achieve that by a different means. Im not very happy to see the lifesteal of SE get smooshed, but thats only because i feel like it should be a tank ability for self sustain a little bit.

My guess is that they thought tank self-healing was too powerful. Specially since self-healing scales with damage output.

Then I see pld get triple the amount they once had on full mp, and now I dont know what they want tanks to be able to do exactly.

Agreed. This is partly why I was against Clemency entering the game in the first place, since heals combined with PLD's other cooldowns notably increase survivability and utility.

They could pull a blood price and lock cooldowns to tank stance, warrior has this already anyway, but as you said no cooldowns for low level tanks...so they cant do that either. Its obvious they dont like tanks dealing a good amount of damage...but darn the algorithm for grabbing enmity kinda messes that one up..

I'd say it's more that the devs didn't want to do major overhauls.

A long time ago, I suggested changing WAR so that Defiance entered the game at lv15 (you'd have to make it a MRD ability rewarded by the lv15 quest), expressly for the purpose of locking enmity bonuses behind that stance. In theory, you'd be able to tank instances as soon as you have access to the first dungeon in the game, Sastasha. Then you'd have Deliverance enter at lv30 when you unlock WAR, and build the class from there.

PLD & Shield Oath could work the same way, with GLA getting Shield Stance at lv15 from the GLA quest, and that getting upgraded to Shield Oath when you unlock PLD at lv30.

[Driavna]

The first thing SE need to do is understand that VIT is just a secondary stat.

[Lyth]

So it's pretty clear that SE doesn't want us to return to the tank dps meta.

Do you have an official statement that specifically states this by any chance? Tools like Shirk allow coordinated groups to pull out of tank stance and swap without enmity combos. If you examine the fastest speedruns on the two Ex primals, you'll actually see no enmity combos used by either tank for the entire fight.

The reason that some tanks are comfortable "ignoring their main stat" as you say is because HP is not our main stat, any more than MP is a healer's main stat. More HP does not make you easier to heal. More HP does not "mitigate" damage. The reason why people can max-min like this is because they look at the incoming damage, determine what the safety threshold is, and work around it.

A lot of the core tanking mechanics are pass-fail. If you fail, the group fails with you. You can't cross-compensate, like you can with raid dps. So the mitigation checks are deliberately designed for a wide range of skill levels, and get progressively softer with gear. If you make players count autos and memorise cleave timings in order to survive, then a lot of groups won't clear. The instant you make a mitigation check softer, you give more room for tanks to optimise. Things like stance dancing can't really be prevented without also locking less experienced tanks out of content with tough mitigation checks in the process.

The discussion on tank accessory scaling doesn't really have anything to do with this. At its core, it has to do with the fact that HP, like MP, is not a primary stat. HP is on everyone's gear. STR is presently the primary stat on tanks, because like every other primary stat in the game, including Healers' MND, it boosts potency. Call it whatever you want, but a main stat makes your actions more effective with higher gear levels.

The decision regarding tank accessory scaling is important because it affects players at all skill levels. Tanks will not suddenly all transform into stance dancing mechanics-ignoring maniacs if you do this. What it actually means, however, is that irrespective of skill, you will continue to contribute to your raid's damage, and get more satisfaction out of using your special moves. There's also less pressure on individual dps to perform, because all eight players can contribute effectively as a team to address dps checks, instead of just four.

And who knows, maybe they might actually start to attract more players to the tanking role if they do it correctly, instead of having to throw mounts and cracked clusters at the problem.

[aqskerorokero]

consistent damage over time from bosses and few cd adjustments, that make tanks fear not tank buster but also autoattacks.

always take example from titan ex back in arr.

[Minas-tepes]

I'm ok with the current meta, the dps check doesn't seems as tight as before. I trust SE

[Reynhart]

1. Most mobs and bosses simply do too little single target damage overall to be a threat to us.
2. Healers have too much single target hps.
3. Tanks have too much hp.
4. Tanks have too much passive damage mitigation.

Personally, I think that there's an even bigger reason for the current meta, above everything you mention : Content is too predictable.
Back in 2.55, I'm pretty sure that if you added a random part in Titan Hard Mode, even top ilvl gear wouldn't allowed lots of people to clear it. It's also because of that that tanks can pinpoint how much of a safety net they need for each content.

So, first solution, make less scripted content. Bosses can have several abilities each with their own cooldown, and could use any ability from their list that isn't on CD. Second solution, make bosses react to what the players do instead of having time or HP trigger. For example, taking a sudden burst of damage could force (Or prevent) the boss to use a specific ability.

Nope, can't agree. I enjoy the current XIV meta for what it is

SE clearly show they want that Meta to die. The question is : Will you adapt or will you quit ?

The reason that some tanks are comfortable "ignoring their main stat" as you say is because HP is not our main stat, any more than MP is a healer's main stat.

VIT is our main stat since it's the only type of accessories we can need on, and eventually wear. The fact that it's not our damaging stat is irrelevant. And, by the way, Piety is not a main stat anymore, so you can't make that comparison.

[Driavna]

SE clearly show they want that Meta to die. The question is : Will you adapt or will you quit ?

They want to kill the meta because people that have no business there are following it and their failures rates skyrocket (not using fending with Susano extreme when you can't time a CD during the first phase for example). But this is not only a problem with FFXIV is there in any multiplayer game, at times a player doesn't understand they are not good enough to pull off certain things (like Lakshmi with 1 healer) and they are better off using a more safer approach.

And I really don't act SE acting like a parent.

[aleph_null]

VIT is our main stat since it's the only type of accessories we can need on, and eventually wear. The fact that it's not our damaging stat is irrelevant. And, by the way, Piety is not a main stat anymore, so you can't make that comparison.

Which is kind of weird. Imagine if healers' healing output and damage are scaled off int, and their main stat is pie, I'd bet a lot of them will wear int accs after having enough pie to heal certain contents.