MCH vs BRD (And why MCH need serious help)

[HyoMinPark]

I'm not personally complaining about anything other than some people's complete lack of educating themselves before they come here to say a job got an offensive buff when, in reality, it did not.

BRD may be "easy to play," but when it comes to min-maxing the job, it is not "easy to play." Just like MCH seems "easy to play," but maximizing it is not. Actually, this can be said for most jobs: easy to play, not easy to fully optimize. By the way, our new Foe's only last 20 seconds now, 30 if we blow our MP Refresh with it. It is also unaffected by BV, since that skill got a complete rework, too. No where near the 70 seconds it used to last, but this argument is neither here nor there.

And please point out where I said MCH did not need help/restructuring? I loathe the job, and my experience with a lot of MCH mains has been sour (regardless of what some posters have said, I encountered a lot of MCHs during 3.1 who flaunted how much better the job was compared to BRD), but even so, I think SE's changes to MCH completely gave the job the shaft, and they need to fix it. I even said to some that I would be fine if MCH was higher with regards to personal DPS and had less support than BRD (not sure if that was in this thread or another one). But sure, I'm wanting to halt your chances at a buff.

[AmandaLashaquoa]

I'm not personally complaining about anything other than some people's complete lack of educating themselves before they come here to say a job got an offensive buff when, in reality, it did not.
And please point out where I said MCH did not need help/restructuring? I

I did never say your name, I did see you agree with MCHs, but I cannot speak for your equals

MCH has enough real things to complain about, no need to make stuff up. It only de-legitimizes the case.

Sure, BRDs being more resilient, more dmging and also more supportive at the same role (ranged phys dps) does not mean that MCH has no stick (not to say short) at all.
If you cannot outdps a MCH (which I have seen before, believe it or not) then the problem is on your end, because the numbers are there.

[Elnidfse]

*snip*

I hate to be that guy but, there's no MCH that would have flaunted how better they were compared to BRD in 3.1. It wasn't until 3.2 that we got our more substantial buffs. IIRC the only thing that happened in 3.1 was void ark got released. And on that same token, and again sorry for being that guy. "easy to play" is a reference to skill floor not skill ceiling. And currently, in order to be competitive, every job in comparison requires a lot less effort, and this includes BRD. Mind you the poster you're debating with is wrong. But not all of your points are correct either. But this argument is completely missing the point and going on an unconstructive tangent.

*snip

Oh Please. MCH isn't in such a poor state that you can't outdps people. And in any casual pug environment you at this very moment can be #1 or #2 DPS in every pug you join. It requires more effort sure, but it's doable at a baseline. Let's not over exaggerate

We really need to stop arguing about this. We won't be able to provide solid feedback this way.

[Cheremia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2xs...ature=youtu.be (sorry for the crappy video tho)
for the people that still think we're affected by our own 2% crit and battle voice.

I'm not gonna join in this discussion because i have no idea how MCH plays but we only have straight shot for crit chance and raging strikes for 10% damage buff.
Foes is way shorter in duration and i'm not gonna blow my mp buff because for that of high cooldown and if my healer need the mp (or other caster because they died) then i give THEM the mp. I rather wait and play it again after phase changes.
Crit got nerfed too and ALL of our mechanics are crit based so it is a little nerf.

Not like i care about being the highest dps tho... JUST INFOS. Don't hit me

[RLofOBFL]

I actually feel like I overreacted a little here <.<

MCH definitely needs a little damage buffing but its not too hugely substantial. And I may have messed up on Troubadour's effect....

[Cetonis]

Bard's raid utility sums up to about 1.5%, Machinist 1.25%. Bard does around 2% more personal damage. Bard's defensive utility is a little better thanks to Minne (I'd take Dismantle over Troub + WP, at least based on historic fight design).

This gap should be closed, of course. Any job balance gap should. But let's have some sobriety here - it's no bigger than the gap between MNK and NIN/SAM, and it's smaller then the gap from BLM to RDM. And certainly smaller than SMN's and DRG's woes.

It's just that there's also a broader issue, with rdps and casters lagging behind melee. Since some of rdps' value come via raid damage, the slightly weaker rdps looks like the worst job ever - even though DRG and SMN are actually in much bigger trouble. But then DRG being weak hurts us rdps further.

That's why I'd argue for a more holistic look at job balance, and the piercing debuff in particular. In the process, SE could choose adjustments that incidentally also close the MCH/BRD gap.

[Elnidfse]

Sorry sorry! A few things, however

Bard's raid utility sums up to about 1.5%, Machinist 1.25%.

Actually it's closer to 1.31% for Machinist to 1.8% for BRD.

2% more personal damage

Semantics I know but it's closer to 1.5% in a number of percentiles.

This gap should be closed, of course. Any job balance gap should. But let's have some sobriety here - it's no bigger than the gap between MNK and NIN/SAM, and it's smaller then the gap from BLM to RDM. And certainly smaller than SMN's and DRG's woes.
.

1. It is bigger than the BLM/RDM gap. That gap in particular gets smaller the higher percentile goes. SMN is indeed suffering and DRG gets the support clause.
2. There is no broader issue of rdps lagging behind melee. In certain fights, such as the one used for measurement, susanoo melee should absolutely be higher given their uptime.

[Elnidfse]

3. That gap should exist but swapped around. BRD can take the DPS loss because of the support clause but it has no business doing more DPS than MCH while also being far more reliable in it's damage output given its sensitivity to mechanics that aren't outright jumps while providing far better offensive and defensive support.

That support clause of doing less DPS is fine when you provide support is fine. It's how they balance around slots. But RDM/BLM, MNK/DRG, BRD/MCH, and SAM/all. Is completely jacked up. But those are topics of another day. This topic is BRD/MCH. It would be easy to look only at rDPS increase and say "hey BRD and MCH is not that far off" but that is wrong.
- An on demand DPS increase during most other jobs burst phases.
- High benefit defensive cooldowns that don't require a target (meaning they're useable for attacks from multiple enemies or attacks that don't generate from the boss) that also lasts longer while being stronger. Mind you I don't want to undersell dismantle. But it's a weaker Reprisal.
- The ability to increase DPS in every way there is

If we're going to talk realistically. MCH right now is outclassed in every way that matters. Well that's not entirely true. We still have style. And i'm telling you, style goes a long way

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I finally tried BRD a little before leaving for work today. I'd like to compile my thoughts on it in a different thread once I get to my desk. It won't be damage/potency-oriented though I may give some notable examples. Instead, I'd like to cover the full spectrum from functionality to aesthetics. As a forethought, it's not going to be a MCH bashing nor BRD glorification, and I'd like to keep it free of that for the sake of not detracting from the overall feedback.

[Cetonis]

Actually it's closer to 1.31% for Machinist to 1.8% for BRD.

I was probably incorrectly adjusting for none of Bard's support helping itself (that registers in Bard's own self-dps so it's already accounted for), but nonetheless you still have to account for people stacking DHit and avoiding Crit, which will be a thing. So both the crit buff and BV are worse than advertised, you're looking at 1.7% more likely since we're in precision land.

It is bigger than the BLM/RDM gap

At 95th, it looks about even. Shifts daily, was using some numbers I jotted down a couple days ago. BLMs are getting the hang of things.

That support clause of doing less DPS is fine when you provide support is fine.

"Support" in terms of boosting raid damage, yes. Defensive support, no not really. The difference between Mantra+Feint vs. Pallisade+Dismantle vs. Pallisade + Bard's island of misfit toys, isn't so substantial that any job should get its damage contribution dumpstered for it. Everyone has defensive support now, Bard just has a collection of weaker buttons to make it feel more supporty, when it isn't that much so in reality.

RD can take the DPS loss because of the support clause but it has no business doing more DPS than MCH while also being far more reliable in it's damage output given its sensitivity to mechanics that aren't outright jumps while providing far better offensive and defensive support.

It's not "far" better at all. 0.4% isn't huge (though it's something) and Dismantle is much better than Troub in most cases due to its freedom of timing and short cooldown, at least in historic fight designs where big persistent damage is rare.

And I'd question how you think Machinist is more messed up by non-jump mechanics. Do you mean turret death? That's the only thing that comes to mind. It's not like Bard can't get completely gutted by a poorly timed stun or whatnot.

2. There is no broader issue of rdps lagging behind melee. In certain fights, such as the one used for measurement, susanoo melee should absolutely be higher given their uptime.

Melee will always find that uptime though. SE has this bad policy of assuming melee will lose a boat ton of uptime in real fights, and then rarely makes it actually happen on the scale that they balance for. They make casters run around more than they make melee lose uptime.