Enthusiastic Tanks

[Silver-Strider]

My biggest issue is the STR acc tanks honestly.
I can usually keep them alive IF they pop CDs in a timely fashion but when they don't, nothing I do can save them, despite having popped every oGCD I have at my disposal.

Had a PLD in the 65 dungeon the other day that did that and needless to say, we wiped. Apparently, he was under the dillusion that healers can heal when sprinting thru the entire dungeon. Sure, a Tetra, Regen and Swiftcast Medica 2 can get you thru some on the pull but when you insist on pulling every mob between here and some barrier, I'm not going to be able to keep you alive at the end as all my oGCd have been used keeping you alive for the initial pull. Then, the DPS get aggro or get caught in AoEs and I can't even get out a medica to help them out before tank drops dead, not a CD to be seen.

It's all really frustrating

[Kogekigami]

I had this the other day. We enter (i had my cutscenes clicked back on cause a friend was over watching) I cast protect on my scholar and the tank zips ahead pulls everything the dps (one be my partner. Dragoon bard combo) were left behind. I got in shield, lustrate and the dot heal (im derping on names) but the tank just went from full to nothing. The tank starts bitching at me for being new (im not) and both me and my partner explain that the mobs hit a lot harder and he may want to pull less as also dragoon being more single target dps. The tank huffs and does so for the next few pulls though not waiting long enough for my mana. Then after first boss he does it again same thing happens and then he starts complaining that small pulls are boring.

It's like if when I'm playing Red Mage, according to you, I should not use Mana Shift on my healer because "he should have use Mana potions, and he should have use his Lucid dreaming". But thanks I just do my job as DPS and when I see my healer (or anyone else) is lacking of mana for whatever reason, I'll just give them mana with Mana Shift. I don't care they manage their class well or not. I do my job. And if I am a dps class with no mana problems and a skill like Mana Shift, then my role is also to provide mana to others lacking of it, whatever the reason.

Yay I am not the only red mage who shifts the healers in need. <3 so many times when doing trails as a scholar i see other red mages who don't help rez or shift XD

[KisaiTenshi]

Never assume anything.

The only way crappy tanks will get better is by showing some humility after getting killed. If they go right back to large pulls and die a second time, well that's what is going to keep happening.

I had a crummy party today in Gubal Library where the tank initially did this double-pull thing, the kind I can keep up with, except... for some reason this tank is losing HP faster than I can heal them. The content is ilevel synced, this shouldn't happen.

So we die to trash, then we die to the demon book wall twice. Tank seems to be able to use their CD's there, not sure why they weren't anywhere else. It wasn't helping that the second DPS (the new one) kept stepping in everything. After that, it's all clear sailing.

But really, I find there is a balance that needs to be had:

If you're the tank, pull one group at a time, and let the healer DPS if they aren't busy enough and you as a tank are not sure how to use CD's
or
If you're the healer, let the tank pull as much as you can heal them through and forgo DPS if they are using their CD's.

This is what the new content has been pulling, is the "surprise reinforcements" card, so if you try to pull two groups, suddenly, you have a third group before you finish off the first two.

As I've stated before, I can typically keep up with the tanks that do larger pulls, but they have to use their CD's. If you aren't going to use your CD's, then just pull one group at a time.

Part of that comes from figuring out how to keep up with the big pull's pre-HW. Pre-HW, the people who try to speedrun things were always sloppy about it. But you never had a PUG group that was somehow level 50 and didn't know their job. Today we have PotD-leveled players and jump potions, and basically people who don't know how to play, or try to zergrush everything like in PotD and get killed quickly. PotD does not give you enough time to use CD's on any job, and for the most part, unless you tank the boss in PotD, you will never have any reason to learn the rest of the skill set.

[winsock]

I'm curious how people are dealing with the tanks that want to pull everything before a boss. As a i314 WHM, I still have to burn most or all of my cooldowns and forego all dps to keep the tank alive, even when they're well geared. Frequently I go into the next huge pull with limited options, and sometimes can barely make it through. A bad series of crits or positioning, and the aggressive pull makes the run take significantly longer than it would have otherwise.

I guess this is normal for X.0 content? Asking the tank to slow down gets ignored, yelled at, or the tank just leaves.

How are other healers handling this? Am I just bad?

If you havent leveled a tank through dungeons and queue expert, I would strongly suggest leveling a tank with dungeons + playing several experts. You really gotta put yourself in the tanks shoes to fully appreciate the issue.

For starters, it is important to understand that a RDM and/or tank self sustain can replace a healer if the tank only pulls one group at a time. It's a waste of a healer to only pull 1 group because the HPS check is so low. So unless the tank has a reason to not pull more, they should be pulling more than 1 group.

Asking to tank to change their pace probably wont be effective unless they need to change their pace. Odds are they have done similar pulls to what you are experiencing several times in the past and haven't experienced issues. They will probably slow down if you let them die multiple times, but this is because they are not confident in your healing ability or "they are going too fast for you". Alternatively, they may be trying to figure out how much they can realistically pull, and will likely overpull to figure that out. They need to be allowed to overpull on occasion to figure out their class. Please be understanding of this.

In addition, everyone has a different opinion about what the pace should be. If I pull 1 group at a time, a healer might tell me I am going to slow or another player in the party might pull more forcing me to tank more mobs. There are alot of backseat drivers... IMO, the best solution to your issue is to accept that you are not driving and ultimately do not get to set the pull size. If you want to be the person controlling the pulls, you have the option to queue as tank.

[Furiea]

This is the way I look at it as someone who play both PLD and WHM.

• as PLD - if my PT has the AOE DPS, I understand the map enough, and have enough skill to pull everything in one shot... I will do it.
  
• as WHM - I perfer to have a tank with enough guts (and the skills) to pull everything so we can finish map faster.
  
• (optional) as SMN - DO IT!!! JUST.... DO IT!!!! DO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT !!!!!!!!

these are trash mobs.., if no one is dying, then why not. it makes things more exciting and intense, no?
unless we somehow clear dungeon faster doing small pulls...

[Nikolas]

if they aren't using any CDs... I let them die. I don't care which CD it is, if you're not even making an attempt to save your own life, why should I?

Oh, because you're the healer, and that's what you're supposed to do.

[Riyshn]

In addition, everyone has a different opinion about what the pace should be. If I pull 1 group at a time, a healer might tell me I am going to slow or another player in the party might pull more forcing me to tank more mobs. There are alot of backseat drivers... IMO, the best solution to your issue is to accept that you are not driving and ultimately do not get to set the pull size. If you want to be the person controlling the pulls, you have the option to queue as tank.

Conversely, I will play Healer Hand of God, and you can either do reasonable pulls that aren't more stressful than some Savage raids, or kick me and wait for a new healer to decide to queue In Progress.

[s3ystic]

I think low level content being dictated by impatient players who in turn are training tanks in bad habits early on is one thing to blame. More specifically I have been told I was going too slow and to pull more when playing my tank role (I level one of each role btw.) This occurred frequently when I was doing the first half of MSQ content (I'm fairly new and not using Jump potions.) The fact the the difficulty curve is so low for those dungeons and there are plenty of high levels to do carries does contribute this. I am not complaining about either however, as I want to get to the new content naturally, but quickly. However I think a bunch of fresh tanks, or newer tanks are being given bad information by high end players who are used to a certain meta, which doesn't translate well to pugs and such. This in turn makes pug healing a bit annoying. All I know is that I like it when the healer speaks up about what they can and cannot handle, I tend to ignore DPS whining.

[MercuryAcetylene]

Because it's your role to do your best without having to be a pervert with mind process such as --> looking at "did my tank used a CD? Ok so I can use one".
It's like if as a tank, I was supposed to let die all DPS who didn't use their reducing enmity CD. If they didn't, I'll just do my best to get it back.

It's like if when I'm playing Red Mage, according to you, I should not use Mana Shift on my healer because "he should have use Mana potions, and he should have use his Lucid dreaming". But thanks I just do my job as DPS and when I see my healer (or anyone else) is lacking of mana for whatever reason, I'll just give them mana with Mana Shift. I don't care they manage their class well or not. I do my job. And if I am a dps class with no mana problems and a skill like Mana Shift, then my role is also to provide mana to others lacking of it, whatever the reason.

that's a different story. only way to compare the 2 is by seeing a MNK spamming Snap Punch over and over in trash pulls or any dps sitting there, not doing a thing. I said I would let the tank die, because they aren't trying to save their own life. I'm not going to work hard for someone who wants to be lazy. its 1 button... press it. also, I never needed your mana shift, I have Lucid Dreaming for that.

[RysloSuramlo]

Not sure why this is such a big deal? I have found that you can still throw in a Aero II, Aero between heals even with a subpar tank.. Its not like we have to cleric stance anymore. To be frank I find healing to be easy when its just single mob pulls (Groups that is). If the tank is having issue's I do make it a point to speak up and explain a bit of their rotation not because I have to but A) It makes my run easier and B) i'm not being a complete A** by letting him die thus wiping our group for no apparent reason. We all have a job in duty's, why make everyone's life miserable because the tank may be New. If the Tank gives you to much issue then there is the kick option.. That is within your right... Also its not like our Queue's are long as healers..To each their own I suppose.