SE before you lock the i270 str accessories

[Crater]

The problem, if SE's reaction to the current system is simply to lock off the older accessories, is that it doesn't solve the fundamental issue here, which is that right-side Fending gear doesn't contribute to Attack Power. If you can't use Slaying gear of any level, then the best accessories to use are going to be the ones with the best secondary stats - meaning that an i300 Crit/Det dungeon drop will be better than an i340 Tenacity/Skill accessory from Savage - and expensive pentamelded crafted gear is almost guaranteed to be tank BiS over any tomestone or raid accessories.

But honestly, I don't think we're saying anything that SE doesn't already know - that there was nothing wrong with the 3.5 calculations, and that the 4.0 changes create a dozen problems that were already solved a year and a half ago. Their position seems to be that tanks should just deal very low damage, at any cost - even if they create massive balance issues and un-fix already-solved problems in the process.

[whiskeybravo]

I think I'm in agreement with you, but it can be hard to achieve when the content you are tackling slowly rewards you with gear that makes you even more survivable. The game needs to allow the content be cleared without that gear, and once you get the gear, you will now likely have enough overhead to sacrifice survivability in favor of damage. It can be challenging to get that meaningful upgrade path, while at the same time keeping the challenge, unless the only reward from doing new content is about looks and frills.

I think that's how they intended it to work, but they underestimate the overachievers and overestimated the underachievers. Honestly I think the best answer for this is to just have multiple raiding tiers. I mean, they tried to do this to an extent but what we got was easy mode and savage - which is why so many statics fell apart through Gordias - there was no middle ground difficulty like the old coil raids. It was either face rolls or finger blisters lol.

Just my opinion, but there should be Story, Hard, and Savage. This would *ideally* please all groups, and the content is already there all they have to do is modify the formulas a bit for each tier.

I know that doesn't have anything to do with 270 accessories - it's just one part of the problem.

[BluexBird]

In 3.x, tanks with high-end gear were able to surpass or come pretty close to the DPS of damage-dealing classes who didn't have the same level of gear. That was a good incentive for tanks to seek out better gear.

Now imagine if new accessories add very little to the tank's damage... there would be no point in getting them, other than to raise your ilvl. I mean, it's already happening right now! After clearing Lakshmi Extreme, I find myself wondering why I should bother painfully clearing her over and over, when at the end of the day I'm fine with the HP I currently have and deal more damage with 270 accessories. -_-

[Ogulbuk]

My 2 cents: if the game allows you to tank in DPS stance, then the game is not penalizing you enough for going into DPS stance. There should be a bigger penalty for dropping tanking stance. I would say add a heavy -VIT to DPS stances, but the DRK is a weird job that technically is either In DPS stance or not. I'm of the mind that jumping into DPS stance should make you as vulnerable to attacks as a DRG with VIT melds.

In 3.x, tanks with high-end gear were able to surpass or come pretty close to the DPS of damage-dealing classes who didn't have the same level of gear. That was a good incentive for tanks to seek out better gear.

Now imagine if new accessories add very little to the tank's damage... there would be no point in getting them, other than to raise your ilvl. I mean, it's already happening right now! After clearing Lakshmi Extreme, I find myself wondering why I should bother painfully clearing her over and over, when at the end of the day I'm fine with the HP I currently have and deal more damage with 270 accessories. -_-

That's a very good point. I doubt they will ever change this, but would be intriguing if they changed Tenacity to simply remove part of the damage penalty you get from your Tanking stance. Obviously would have to be carefully balanced so they can keep giving you higher values throughout the expansion (before the eventual reset.)

[Zojha]

I'm of the mind that jumping into DPS stance should make you as vulnerable to attacks as a DRG with VIT melds.

Well that's very easy to facilitate: Reduce the DEF/MDEF on tank equip to DRG levels.

Done. PLD would still be mildly tankier due to the ability to block, but that's it, really.

At that point, though, you could give every DPS a stance that reduces damage taken and gives some spells higher enmity, then do away with the concept of dedicated tanks entirely, as the stance is all that matters and you can just give it to everyone.

[Shurrikhan]

Just remove the advantage by which any Fending accessory has more Vitality than a Slaying/Aiming/Casting/Healing accessory has Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Mind.
(This has already mostly been done by i300, wherein they vary by 2%, down from, say, the 9.6% difference at i276.)

Then, give Vitality an AP multiplier between .75 and .8. Give no AP whatsoever for Strength. Lock them into Fending Accessories. Now tanks actually get to pick what materia to meld.

If the mere use of Vitality accessories at that point still seems to bloat tank health and/or survivability, you have two further options:
- Reduce Vitality accessories to some 10% to 15% less stat given than other accessories of the same item level, but increase the AP modifier. This would only decrease eHP bloat.
Or
- Reduce the Defense and Magic Defense of tank gear by 10 to 20%. The latter would be approximate to averaging its defense with that of Dragoon gear. This would also require more healing to be done.

[Dizzy_Derp]

I'm of the mind that jumping into DPS stance should make you as vulnerable to attacks as a DRG with VIT melds.

It doesn't matter the even if we were as vulnerble as a drg or had the same hp as one, we would still tank in dps stance. The fact is we have so many cds that you can just super cooldown one buster invuln the next one, tank swap and continue the same pattern. Unless there is constant like every second tank busters, tanking in your tank stance is never going to be a thing. And if they did that then healers would have to heal full time instead of dps and the dps would have to carry all the weight in a group, which is fine if you want WOW levels of toxicity. Because if it's only on dps to provide the damage then I'm going to be kicking every dps not doing 90+percentile dps and then proceeding to flame the living hell out of them for sucking at their class because, hey SE decided it's 100% on you guys to kill the boss now and we can't "skip soar"

[Ogulbuk]

It doesn't matter the even if we were as vulnerble as a drg or had the same hp as one, we would still tank in dps stance. The fact is we have so many cds that you can just super cooldown one buster invuln the next one, tank swap and continue the same pattern.

When I say make them vulnerable, I would go after everything, one way or another. All those defensive cool downs would be disabled, cancel on stance switch, be extremely weaker, or simply do something entirely different in DPS stance (not unlike Thrill of Battle.)

[Dizzy_Derp]

I would go after everything, one way or another. All those defensive cool downs would be disabled, cancel on stance switch, be extremely weaker,

Um then what exacty do you propose we do? Sit in tank stance and flash? No cds so no reason to learn the fight, im in tank stance doing nothing so i will survive everything!!! That the best idea i have ever heard man, just make it where i LITERALLY DO NOTHING besides stand around in tank stance and let the healer heal me,. We are gonna get sooooooo many more tanks with this change!!!(Sarcasm) And like I said that would just make us as toxic as WOW. Your not above 90th percentile? Kicked for sucking at your class. You dared to die once as a dps? Flames in front of the party for sucking at the game, kicked, blacklisted. The reason this game is better than WOW is that we can do things as a tank and healer, if SE takes that away half the game would quit, and the half that stayed? Lul

[eagledorf]

The problem is that Strength is the primary stat for tanks right now, not Vitality.

Vitality increases our HP (i.e. survivability). STR increases our self-healing power (also survivability), threat generation, and DPS. If one stat increases everything and the other only increases one thing, which one is the primary stat? In fact, STR even increases our total HP pool for an encounter by vastly more than VIT.

I know what you're thinking, if the tank doesn't have enough HP for the tank buster the party will wipe. That's true. It's also true that if the healers don't have enough HP for a phase change ultimate the party will wipe. Is Vitality the primary healer stat? No, because Mind increases their healing output.

As of 4.0 Vitality is no more the tank primary stat than it is the healer primary stat. Locking tanks out of the i270 accessories instead of putting STR on the new accessories just means you're locking tanks out of their primary stat on the entire right side. That's quite stupid.

It also means tanks would have to buy materia in order to access their primary stat on every single accessory they acquire. So you're putting a massive financial burden on playing the role that is in shortest supply that doesn't exist for the other two roles. That's unspeakably stupid.

SE, please think very very hard about if you want to discourage people from tanking right as you add 2 DPS to the game.