Summoner and the upcoming changes

[PotatoTree]

It kind of also sucks that:

- a good SMN should have low MP due to R3 spam, meaning we can't mana shift as well as the other casters. Plus losing mp really hurts us.
- if you ever get fettered or stunned (like in Susano) while in trance or while bahamut is up, say goodbye to your dps
- the setup time is so long that you're forced to do your burst at horrible times or you end up waiting and unable to cast AF (can't store AF)
- lock on contagion when in bahamut really sucks

They should just make bahamut auto attack. We don't have much leeway in terms of when to optimally use it without clipping into the next AF cooldown, so we might have to use it during a bad time where we can't cast.

[Brinzy]

I know that I have to use Shadow Flare every time it's up, but for the stacks, when should I use them on Bane and when on Painflare?

So here's a bit of napkin math:

Painflare is 200 potency to everything it hits. So the idea is that you want to Bane when you do more than 200 potency x the number of enemies hit by Painflare.

On your original target, it takes 3 global ticks to do more than that 200, since each tick is 80 potency with both dots. So if the pack is going to die in under 3 ticks, Painflare. Most packs won't, so Bane. That's the easy and obvious example.

Less obvious is when you're on a pack of, say, 3 enemies. The third enemy takes 40% reduced damage from your Bane, so 48 per tick. This means that you need 5 ticks on the 3rd enemy to do more damage than Painflare would've done. At 4 ticks, you do 192 potency, so it's still generally worth using Bane over Painflare if a pack of three is gonna live for at least 12 seconds - usually a bit less since the first tick generally happens in under 3 seconds.

On 4 enemies, the 4th takes 60% reduced damage, so 32 potency. Now you need 7 ticks for the 4th enemy to take more damage than they would've from Painflare.
On 5 enemies, the 5th takes 80% reduced damage, so 16 potency. At this point, Painflare will always do more damage to the 5th target and beyond.

Now, recall that Bane on the 2nd and 3rd target will do a lot more damage than Painflare over a reasonable amount of time. I would recommend Bane and Painflare x2, because Deathflare + Shadowflare + your pet's AoE will generally make up for the very low Bane damage. However, if the enemies are so healthy that they're gonna live for a long time (45 seconds+) AND you just used Aetherflow, I would Bane, Painflare, and then set up a second Bane once the first one is almost out. This lets you enter Dreadwyrm, and Aetherflow should be coming back up very close to the end of it.

tl;dr Bane + Painflare x2 in the vast majority of situations

[Mreed]

tl;dr Bane + Painflare x2 in the vast majority of situations

That's what I've been doing too.

[Tsumdere]

I have quite a few things to say about SMN but it's just mirroring what everyone else is saying. No - it's DPS is top tier if you're PERFECT (and 99% of people are not). But it's a clunky, unintuitive mess of a class that is simultaneously boring (Ruin spam anyone) and difficult, not because of rotation, but because one simple misclick can cost you 1-2 minutes of DPS.

I won't be surprised if it gets a rework a la BRD.

If you REALLY love books, togas, and hurting yourself, by all means keep playing summoner. More power to you. But you can play BLM and RDM with the same (if not better) results for significantly less effort and without babysitting a dumb squirrel that keeps sticking it's paws in electrical outlets.

[Vulcwen]

Don't forget that bane does 0 damage on the first target, as that's what you're spreading from, while painflare does do damage to that.
A table that compares them (max duration is simply 10 times of the 1-tick version):

Targets Painflare Bane (1 tick) Bane (5 ticks)
1       200       0             0
2       400       80            400
3       600       144           720
4       800       192           960
5       1000      224           1120
6       1200      240           1200
7       1400      256           1280

If you think the fight will last 15s or longer, use bane, if you think it's shorter, use bane anyway, but just to get in DWT after 5s.

[Achelon]

Thank you guys!
So I should just DoT up one enemy, Bane to spread DoTs and then use the other 2 stacks on Painflare for the maximum damage amount.

About the other question, can anyone give me a good and math proven answer about should I use Ruin I or Ruin III outside of Trance? Until now I've been using Ruin I and I've seen people on streams and youtube doing both things, Ruin I or Ruin III, so I don't know anymore which one is better.

I know that class has gotten so more difficult and "clunky" but I still love playing it, and I gotta say that the emotion and hype for using Bahamut, for me, makes it up for everything else. Those 20s...oh Gosh...I'm so happy :'D

[Nerisu]

Thank you guys!
So I should just DoT up one enemy, Bane to spread DoTs and then use the other 2 stacks on Painflare for the maximum damage amount.

About the other question, can anyone give me a good and math proven answer about should I use Ruin I or Ruin III outside of Trance? Until now I've been using Ruin I and I've seen people on streams and youtube doing both things, Ruin I or Ruin III, so I don't know anymore which one is better.

I know that class has gotten so more difficult and "clunky" but I still love playing it, and I gotta say that the emotion and hype for using Bahamut, for me, makes it up for everything else. Those 20s...oh Gosh...I'm so happy :'D

I usually just spam Ruin III until I have around 3-4k MP and switch to Ruin from there. I kinda wish some of the things in PVP were in PVE too like 100% Ruin IV during trance, consolidated buttons for Summon and Enkindle Bahamut and the ability to summon Demi-Bahamut every after trance.

[Sunako]

Thank you guys!
So I should just DoT up one enemy, Bane to spread DoTs and then use the other 2 stacks on Painflare for the maximum damage amount.

About the other question, can anyone give me a good and math proven answer about should I use Ruin I or Ruin III outside of Trance? Until now I've been using Ruin I and I've seen people on streams and youtube doing both things, Ruin I or Ruin III, so I don't know anymore which one is better.

I know that class has gotten so more difficult and "clunky" but I still love playing it, and I gotta say that the emotion and hype for using Bahamut, for me, makes it up for everything else. Those 20s...oh Gosh...I'm so happy :'D

what else you would use your mana for? Use ruin 3 until you have 50% mana and save some mana for ress and mana swap if needed, ideally you want end fight with nearly zero mana. You get lot mana from lucid dreaming and aetherflows. ruin1 cost is really low and dots rarely need even applied. Only way you get benefit from your mana pool is using ruin 3. If your party have bard with mana buffs you can spam even more ruin 3.

[Brinzy]

Don't forget that bane does 0 damage on the first target, as that's what you're spreading from, while painflare does do damage to that.
A table that compares them (max duration is simply 10 times of the 1-tick version):

Targets Painflare Bane (1 tick) Bane (5 ticks)
1       200       0             0
2       400       80            400
3       600       144           720
4       800       192           960
5       1000      224           1120
6       1200      240           1200
7       1400      256           1280

If you think the fight will last 15s or longer, use bane, if you think it's shorter, use bane anyway, but just to get in DWT after 5s.

Really good catch, I forgot about that.

[ThirdKeyOfSun]

Is there really never ever a reason to use Tri-bind for AoE damage? Like if you have already spread dots and there are no aether charges left to burn?