Shield Oath makes Sheltron useless.

[Lemuria]

We really need to stop the hyperbole around sheltron. It's extremely strong for what it does, and it is available more often in stormblood than it was in heavensward, even in shield oath.

Not sure I agree there, from what I've observed on my paladin Oath takes a very long time to generate, and Shelltron eats a good portion of it. I've found it available considerably less often than it used to be.

Sure, this might change once I hit 70, but that still means it's close to useless for at least 12 levels.

Overall I'm happy with the changes to Paladin. We're definitely a lot stronger overall but I guess Shelltron was the trade-off for that added strength.

[Furious]

I think the OP underlines the problem with creating a resource bar but making resources generate very slowly while under Shield Oath. I'll add that Holy Spirit should not generate 20 Oath under Shield Oath, since that forces the design to funnel Oath generation behind that spell to get people to use Holy Spirit on top of focusing on recovering MP (to cast Holy Spirit some more).

I'd probably nerf Oath generation from Holy Spirit, change Shield Oath to generate Oath when you take direct hits (blocks and parries would generate slightly more Oath), along with more Oath consumption from other skills to compensate.

The resource does not generate slowly while under shield oath. I can't believe this is such a hard concept to grasp.

You will be casting 5 holy spirit per minute at a MINIMUM as part of your normal rotation on paladin. 5 holy spirit generates 100 energy. 100 energy gives you two uses of sheltron. 2 uses of sheltron per minute means one use of sheltron per 30 seconds, which is exactly the same rate as the old sheltron was available - only now it can be banked and used back to back if required, where before it couldn't.

As well as this _bare minimum_ of 100 oath gauge per minute, which already equals heavensward sheltron, you _also_ get 5 energy per block (which is only possible because the ability is now gained in small increments rather than on a cooldown or as a chance to reset). At a minimum, you get 10 energy per minute from the two attacks you block while using sheltron, meaning that at its base sheltron is available more often than it was in heavensward through standard play. If you really wanted to, you could shelltron > hs >sheltron > hs > hs >sheltron > hs > hs > sheltron, for 4 sheltron blocks in 12.5 seconds, and come out of that with ~20 gauge remaining. It would use up your sheltrons for a while, but you can do it if a fight pattern demands it - you could never do this before, and you can because of the way you generate sheltron energy now.

Your standard rotations now both use riot blade, which intrinsically regenerates enough mana in the interceeding time to cast your holy spirits, as well as the bigger portion you get back from blocking with sheltron.

Taking it a step further, you have a 100% chance to block with bulwark up, which garuntees you a portion of blocks every time it is off cooldown, and when you aoe pull, your number of blocks also goes up significantly (tanking even two mobs will nearly double your gains from blocking (which we have already established are extra charges that are already more than what you had in heavensward)).

I'm not sure why you think you need to be forced to use holy spirit when it is signicantly stronger than your standard damage rotation; you don't need incentive to use the royal authority combo do you?

Not sure I agree there, from what I've observed on my paladin Oath takes a very long time to generate, and Shelltron eats a good portion of it. I've found it available considerably less often than it used to be.

Sure, this might change once I hit 70, but that still means it's close to useless for at least 12 levels.

Overall I'm happy with the changes to Paladin. We're definitely a lot stronger overall but I guess Shelltron was the trade-off for that added strength.

You get holy spirit at 64, and you don't need it before endgame anyway. Yes, it's marginally awkward before 64. It simply doesn't matter enough to do anything about that though.

Sheltron now is so much better than sheltron in heavensward, it's crazy. It's better in every way.

It's available more often, and significantly more often when you use bulwark or aoe tank. But even at baseline, when you get holy spirit at 64, you have more casts per minute of sheltron available in SB than you had in HW.
It can be used on magic damage.
It can be used regardless of facing or positioning.
It can be banked up to two effective charges, and if absolutely needed can get up to 4 uses within a 12 second window with enough preparation time.

Sheltron isn't the tradeoff for everything else, sheltron is a big part of the everything else.

[Duelle]

The resource does not generate slowly while under shield oath. I can't believe this is such a hard concept to grasp.

You're gating Oath generation in Shield Oath behind one skill and one RNG proc. The former you get at lv64, the latter you can't manipulate without involving a 3-minute cooldown (Bulwark) or a 2-minute cooldown (Passage of Arms).

You will be casting 5 holy spirit per minute at a MINIMUM as part of your normal rotation on paladin. 5 holy spirit generates 100 energy.

Which is nice after you hit lv64, but when you add any new system, you introduce the player to the basics of it and then add more skills/mechanics tied to it. The way Oath was implemented does not do that, since there's only two skills in the entire PLD kit that interact with it prior to getting Holy Spirit: Sheltron and Intervention. And as per the design you can't count on using them much since Oath gauge generates very slowly under Shield Oath (unless lv61-63 shields have insanely high block rates) until lv64. Hence my comment on it.

What I'm getting at is that growth does not flow very well, because a new player that never had pre-SB Sheltron is getting an ability at lv52 that they'll almost never be able to use, and will likely wonder why they even have it for the next 12 levels until they get Holy Spirit and Oath generation in Shield Oath goes from UI garnish to a functional system. So instead of being able to learn how to make use of Sheltron upon acquisition (like you do with new skills in any well-designed system), you're waiting until lv64. The same also applies to intervention, but that's a really situational ability since you'd get the most bang for your buck using it on your co-tank in EX/Savage.

Sure, everything works at lv70, but feels counter to the idea of the player learning how to use skills as they acquire them, and that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Reynhart]

So instead of being able to learn how to make use of Sheltron upon acquisition (like you do with new skills in any well-designed system), you're waiting until lv64.

Possible "fix". Make casting any Divine Spell increase the Oath Gauge by 20. So, Holy Spirit and Clemency.

[Furious]

You're gating Oath generation in Shield Oath behind one skill and one RNG proc. The former you get at lv64, the latter you can't manipulate without involving a 3-minute cooldown (Bulwark) or a 2-minute cooldown (Passage of Arms).
Which is nice after you hit lv64, but when you add any new system, you introduce the player to the basics of it and then add more skills/mechanics tied to it. The way Oath was implemented does not do that, since there's only two skills in the entire PLD kit that interact with it prior to getting Holy Spirit: Sheltron and Intervention. And as per the design you can't count on using them much since Oath gauge generates very slowly under Shield Oath (unless lv61-63 shields have insanely high block rates) until lv64. Hence my comment on it.

What I'm getting at is that growth does not flow very well, because a new player that never had pre-SB Sheltron is getting an ability at lv52 that they'll almost never be able to use, and will likely wonder why they even have it for the next 12 levels until they get Holy Spirit and Oath generation in Shield Oath goes from UI garnish to a functional system. So instead of being able to learn how to make use of Sheltron upon acquisition (like you do with new skills in any well-designed system), you're waiting until lv64. The same also applies to intervention, but that's a really situational ability since you'd get the most bang for your buck using it on your co-tank in EX/Savage.

Sure, everything works at lv70, but feels counter to the idea of the player learning how to use skills as they acquire them, and that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The problems you are outlining are literally non-starters; they are imagined problems. People don't learn to play their class until they have the abilities in totality; the same is true of a great many classes and abilities in the game. When you get sheltron at 52, you will likely spend a lot of your time questing in sword oath, where you generate charge at a rate of 5 per gcd nearly continuously, and will have regular uses of the block available. In dungeons, when you use shield oath, you will have less, but you also don't need any.

If they were to increase the rate you generate shield charge in any other way, it would neccesitate reducing the oath generated by holy spirit, which is the entire point of the new system; a cyclical rotation between physical attacking for ~75% of the time, generating some minor charge, then supercharging with holy spirit, then back to generating mana with physical attacks.

The whole argument that people learn to play their classes as they level is and always has been a ridiculous one. Classes and jobs (in FFXIV and in any other mmo) simply don't play the same at low and high level. Learning to play as you level means learning habits that don't fit with the ability package as you get higher - you develope muscle memory for abilities that later become moot or situational, for example. PotD reinforces this; someone who takes a step into a solo 50+ potd with a new class and spends 10 minutes reading and sorting their abilities will be much more likely to have a congruent, logical button layout for their abilities than someone who put them into place as they leveled. People fail at their jobs in potd, but certainly not at a rate higher than they fail at leveling roulette dungeons or anything else that requires levels be "earned".

[Duelle]

People don't learn to play their class until they have the abilities in totality;

You're undervaluing pacing in class growth. When you add new abilities, it's either because you're introducing the player to the basics of a new system (Blood of the Dragon), building on something that is already there (combos are a good example of this), or fill niche uses for specific situations (CC, debuffs, AoE abilities).

When you get sheltron at 52, you will likely spend a lot of your time questing in sword oath, where you generate charge at a rate of 5 per gcd nearly continuously, and will have regular uses of the block available. In dungeons, when you use shield oath, you will have less, but you also don't need any.

Which underlines the problem of the system not being fully functional for 12 levels.

Let's take Blood of the Dragon as an example. Upon getting it, the DRG starts off with a buff that increases jump damage. You start using it around the time you use your jumps on the rotation, and that's it. At 56 you receive the ability to extend the duration of BotD with Fang & Claw. At 60 you get the Geirskogul, which consumes some of the BotD duration. So you go from starting out with a buff, then getting an ability that deals good damage that also extends the buff duration, and lastly a skill that reduces duration/consumes the buff. That's how a well-paced system is introduced to the player, as you're building up the system from a very basic level (buff that improves jumps) and then adding the ability to manipulate the system to your advantage in combat.

If they were to increase the rate you generate shield charge in any other way, it would necessitate reducing the oath generated by holy spirit, which is the entire point of the new system; a cyclical rotation between physical attacking for ~75% of the time, generating some minor charge, then supercharging with holy spirit, then back to generating mana with physical attacks.

I don't think reducing Oath generated by Holy Spirit would undermine the system. It would simply make the system not hinge so much on Holy Spirit. You yourself have said that Holy Spirit's damage alone is enough to get the player to use it, so by that logic the nerf to Oath generation wouldn't be much of a loss.

The whole argument that people learn to play their classes as they level is and always has been a ridiculous one.

So you're saying I'm the exception and not the rule, as this is pretty much how I approach learning classes in every game I've played (also why I have initial trouble with level-jumped classes). It's also why I've paid close attention to pacing when I put my suggestions together, because having a disjointed system hanging over you with the promises of "it'll work properly later" is not a good feeling to have.

[Furious]

You're undervaluing pacing in class growth. When you add new abilities, it's either because you're introducing the player to the basics of a new system (Blood of the Dragon), building on something that is already there (combos are a good example of this), or fill niche uses for specific situations (CC, debuffs, AoE abilities).

You're overvaluing it. Learning in steps like this causes early abilities to be overvalued in the late-game development of playing habits, often being used in critical keybinds because that's what they're used to.

Which underlines the problem of the system not being fully functional for 12 levels.

No, it doesn't? It specifically doesn't in the manner I said. The system is as functional as it needs to be for the content in question. You generate charge quickly when you are aoe tanking (eclipse came in at 46) and when you are in dps stance (which you use most of the time while questing). For the needs of the leveling paladin, you generate charge fine. It's not as fast as endgame, and it doesn't need to be. Boss abilities at level 50 aren't dangerous to tanks like they are in max level raids.

Let's take Blood of the Dragon as an example. Upon getting it, the DRG starts off with a buff that increases jump damage. You start using it around the time you use your jumps on the rotation, and that's it. At 56 you receive the ability to extend the duration of BotD with Fang & Claw. At 60 you get the Geirskogul, which consumes some of the BotD duration. So you go from starting out with a buff, then getting an ability that deals good damage that also extends the buff duration, and lastly a skill that reduces duration/consumes the buff. That's how a well-paced system is introduced to the player, as you're building up the system from a very basic level (buff that improves jumps) and then adding the ability to manipulate the system to your advantage in combat.

You're explaining what the system is and attributing that as the WHY that it is a good thing. I know what stepped learning is, but I am saying that it is the wrong way to learn when the goal is performing well in content that will actually challenge you to perform well using the entire package.

I don't think reducing Oath generated by Holy Spirit would undermine the system. It would simply make the system not hinge so much on Holy Spirit. You yourself have said that Holy Spirit's damage alone is enough to get the player to use it, so by that logic the nerf to Oath generation wouldn't be much of a loss.

Reducing the system's reliance on holy spirit definitionally undermines the system of using holy spirit to generate charge, and using physical attacks to generate mana for holy spirit. Reducing holy spirit to only be a high powered nuke makes it incidental rather than integral. You do more damage, but mechically function the same by reducing or ignoring the new holy spirit spender/generator system. If you ignore holy spirit when it generates the majority of your oath gauge, you lose out on primary defense mechanics and you devalue the role of mana regeneration (it becomes essentially a dps resource rather than a defensive one).

So you're saying I'm the exception and not the rule, as this is pretty much how I approach learning classes in every game I've played (also why I have initial trouble with level-jumped classes). It's also why I've paid close attention to pacing when I put my suggestions together, because having a disjointed system hanging over you with the promises of "it'll work properly later" is not a good feeling to have.

You're not the exception to the rule, but the rule is, and always has been, wrong. MMO games revolve around character progression and that is why you will very rarely see one that gives you all your abilities on day one, but that's not because it's the best way to learn how to play your class as a whole, even if that's the stated goal.

In practice this is a difference of opinion and we aren't going to agree, but when it comes down to it oath gauge works just fine when you get it and improves as you go. The degrees to which both occur are incidental.

[Shurrikhan]

The resource does not generate slowly while under shield oath. I can't believe this is such a hard concept to grasp.

You will be casting 5 holy spirit per minute at a MINIMUM as part of your normal rotation on paladin. 5 holy spirit generates 100 energy. 100 energy gives you two uses of sheltron. 2 uses of sheltron per minute means one use of sheltron per 30 seconds, which is exactly the same rate as the old sheltron was available - only now it can be banked and used back to back if required, where before it couldn't.

Reading what you've quoted and its original context, the point seemed very, very clearly to be on the dependence of Shield Oath on Holy Spirit and the BASE (pre-HS) generation of gauge under Shield Oath. But that my have been a hard concept to grasp, too?

While I'll agree with your points since, that doesn't stop Shield Oath's gauge accretion from feeling undertuned and overly dependent to me, and apparently to some others as well. It's as simple as that.

[Furious]

Reading what you've quoted and its original context, the point seemed very, very clearly to be on the dependence of Shield Oath on Holy Spirit and the BASE (pre-HS) generation of gauge under Shield Oath. But that my have been a hard concept to grasp, too?

While I'll agree with your points since, that doesn't stop Shield Oath's gauge accretion from feeling undertuned and overly dependent to me, and apparently to some others as well. It's as simple as that.

Well, I'm probably not going to change your mind on it, but it's basically the entire point of the new paladin setup. Req into holy spirit to generate gauge, then gauge and physical attacks to generate mana, then mana to generate gauge, then.. so on.

Moving generation away from holy spirit and into passive generation devalues and relegates the importance of holy spirit away from a rotational necessity for defense and resource generation to a dps gain (and reduces the opportunity cost of using your mana to heal instead). The rotation of paladin switches from an A>B>A>B setup to an A... oh and B if you aren't gonna die and wanna do more damage. A is the fight or flight, goring blade, royal authority "section" that passively generates mana, while "B" is the requiestcat is up, go to town and refresh your oath gauge (which will later regenerate mana and possibly save a lot of damage). It needs the too and fro to work well in my opinion.

[Shurrikhan]

Moving generation away from holy spirit and into passive generation devalues and relegates the importance of holy spirit away from a rotational necessity for defense and resource generation to a dps gain (and reduces the opportunity cost of using your mana to heal instead).

I guess, there you have it then. I guess I prefer that.

Without a Ranged (since they stupidly can't take Diversion - seriously wtf?), or having both a Ninja and a Ranged, I open in Sword Oath with spare gauge from trash Requiescat, HS 6-7 times throughout the duration, Fast, FoF, Riot, SoC, SW, GB, keep tri-comboing with 2 more DSs worked in before the next Requiescat as not to overcap mana or gauge (because it's that much higher in Sword Oath), and I don't remotely lose threat, while getting far more DPS in the bargain.

On the off chance I have some bursty DPS who cannot or refuse to use enmity-reduction skills, I'll open in Shield Oath for roughly the same. If they're really bursty, I may have to open with a FoF RoH combo in Shield Oath, into GB, RoH, RoH, Fast, Riot, Sword Oath, Goring, late Requiscat, HS-spam.

But at no point is that bonus 100-120 gauge going to be worth the damage for me. I'd be losing 25-30 just over the case times, and the remainder bonus mana from the 2 bonus Shelltron, less than two HS in value, cannot bring me from 2 spare casts per minute to 5, which would be needed not to clip my last combo or delay my next Requiescat.

Admittedly, fewer RoH combos needed = more Riot Blade and Royal Authority, but that's a good 63 potency you're missing per GCD atop 25% of each skill itself... I still don't think it's going to close that gap, nor do I see why it would need to do so, let alone through HS.

Maybe I've just had too good of luck with 67/69 dungeon grind speedruns so far, which has cut me a lot more slack enmity-wise due to Shadewalker/Smokescreen or Diversion, but the optimal rotation doesn't seem to lie where you've listed as 'developer intended', at least in that context. And, honestly, given that most seems ultimately to come down to speedrunning... what exactly makes something inferior in how it affects clear times more optimal?