Who is jumping ship once they start charging in November?

[Vawn]

Except this is SE and they not only fired people, but flat out apologized for how bad it was and said they would fix it.

Actually, a bunch of us DIDN'T love the game at release. You know what we did? We quit playing. We didn't keep playing it and posting every single day over the year about how we hate it.

We came back after a few updates and gave it another shot. When the game was at a point where we enjoyed it, then we kept playing. If the game becomes no longer enjoyable to us again, we'll leave and find something else to fill our free time. We wouldn't keep playing a game we dislike and constantly bitch about how we dislike it.

This is how rational people behave.

[Preypacer]

i have a right to complain you don't have to like it.

And people have a right to disagree with the assertions you make along with your complaints. You don't have to like it.

See, that's the problem with you, gripz. Every time people speak out to refute or disagree with something you say, you immediately start painting yourself as some kind of "victim of censorship" in a number of your posts. "Oh, poor me. I'm just trying to vent my frustrations with the game and people won't let me!! Poor unfairly censored me!!"

People disagreeing or debating with you isn't "censorship". If you're going to play the "victim of censorship", at least make sure you're actually being censored. Seems a bit disingenuous otherwise.

Anyway... your posts aren't anywhere near as "innocent" as you keep trying to spin them. You're doing your fair share of throwing around assertions that you could not support with verifiable numbers any more than those you're challenging to do the same.

For just one example, you posted things like the following only a few pages back:

"argue this all you want but the majority is outside this Little box here in these forums. and if they truly thought this game was worth paying a sub for they would post, but sense most people don't care, waiting for 2.0, or just wont ever buy a SE product again, post on forums where they can say what they please. "


So where are your "numerical stats" to back up your claim that it's the majority? Have you approached every single person who's opined on the game or casted their vote on a poll outside this site to verify that they were actually "a majority" or that all of them even owned the game at all? I'm gonna guess that you didn't.

Thus, you can't back up your claim of "a majority" with actual stats either.

So you are doing exactly the same thing you are accusing others to do. There's a word for people who do things like that, you know.

As much as people like to dismiss the results of OPs like this one becuase "oh it's the official site so of course people are going to be mostly supportive".. That's a hollow argument in this case. Because in order to access these forums at all you have to have bought the game and have an active character.

So right there it can be verified that every single account posting here actually *does* own the game and actually *does* have at least one character. That's something that can not be claimed with any certainty for those posting on ZAM, etc.

And as has been explained before.. It seems much more valid to take the opinions - positive, negative or otherwise - from people who actually are affected by the game's future because they verifiably have invested money and/or time into it, than to take the opinions of people on non-official sites where anyone can cast a vote or voice an opinion, without even having invested a single dime, nor even 5 minutes into looking into the game.

And to be sure, people on forums love to opine on things they have no first-hand knowledge or experience with. That kind of thing just goes with the territory. It would be naive to assume that every person casting a vote on a site like ZAM or elsewhere has a game account simply because they voted.

My opinion on that would be the same regardless. Even if the numbers were reversed and 2 out of 3 here stated that they were not willing to pay a sub at this time, I'd stand by it just as much, for the same reasons.

I'll go one step further to perhaps knock your self-pity trip down a peg... I think your opinion of the state of the game and subs being reinstated as being every bit as valid here as those who are fine with it. I don't know about others and I won't speak for them, but you saying "I don't think it's ready for subs" is every bit as valid as someone else on these forums saying "I think it is ready for subs".

Why? Because both of you have invested money and/or time into buying and at least trying the game. You are invested in it, and stand to be affected by SE's decision. So, to me, your opinions count equally at the individual level.

However... It just so happens that there are substantially more here who are willing to stick around than there are those who aren't.

That there are more who are fine with subs doesn't devalue your individual opinion.. It just means your individual opinion is not that of the majority.

You seem to be taking people disagreeing with you wayyyyyyy too personally.

[irongripz]

Actually, a bunch of us DIDN'T love the game at release. You know what we did? We quit playing. We didn't keep playing it and posting every single day over the year about how we hate it.

We came back after a few updates and gave it another shot. When the game was at a point where we enjoyed it, then we kept playing. If the game becomes no longer enjoyable to us again, we'll leave and find something else to fill our free time. We wouldn't keep playing a game we dislike and constantly bitch about how we dislike it.

This is how rational people behave.

i will you don't have to like my bitching...better than being SE little.... Inflammatory comments

[irongripz]

That there are more who are fine with subs doesn't devalue your individual opinion.. It just means your individual opinion is not that of the majority.

and yet this again. same crap same people. your the minority the majority is on un moderated sites telling you why this game is not ready.. i could link sites but you know.

they just get deleted because they are all bad and its indisputable harm to SE. you are the minority. I am only the minority to the same 15 trolls on this forum group

funny how you dismiss those who check out the patches and quit as their opinion don't matter. only those who plays and enjoys matter. that basically all of your arguments and its reason other sites are the majority.

so may people want to use majority.... the majority disagree that this game is even worth buying so what is the point in using that statement?

[Jennestia]

Except this is SE and they not only fired people

Who was fired again? Aside people who've left the company over the years, I've yet to see them actually fire someone.

and yet this again. same crap same people. your the minority the majority is on un moderated sites telling you why this game is not ready.. i could link sites but you know.

they just get deleted because they are all bad and its indisputable harm to SE.

You keep saying it "harms SE" "harms SE" "harms SE"..what harm is being done? The only opinions that get deleted are trolling and inflammatory comments, aka attacking other players for being positive.

[Kafeen]

Except this is SE and they not only fired people

Noone was fired, they were just moved around to either a different job position or a different project.

To most people that "fixed" state will be when 2.0 hits

So we're supposed to listen to the same complaints for the next year? Thank god most of these will be leaving then.

You seem to be on the same mind-set as a few posters on these forums who defend SE's choices blindly and only see black and white. You say if you dont love it, GTFO.

I certainly don't see only black and white, but with some of the language people use on here is certainly seems that they do. There's a big difference between loving a game and thinking its a pile of $#!£ like some people are claiming (despite still being here a year after launch). I haven't seen many post saying "I like this, I like that but this still needs more work so I'll come back when 2.0 is released". But in reality doesn't that make more sense to do? If you aren't happy with the game now and willing to pay, then don't. Want to see if the game is in a state you're willing to pay for when 2.0 is released, come back then. It doesn't mean the rest of us want to see the same repeated topics for the next 12 months whining about the same old thing.

[irongripz]

So where are your "numerical stats" to back up your claim that it's the majority? Have you approached every single person who's opined on the game or casted their vote on a poll outside this site to verify that they were actually "a majority" or that all of them even owned the game at all? I'm gonna guess that you didn't.

i don't have a numerical stat but i have apology letters. i have bad reviews after bad reviews to back my opinions. only good reviews you will find on this game are probably on this forum or straight from a fanboysite.

i never put the word FACT behind my statments. only those who disagree argur that there is any facts..

lets go over the fact tho..

wow has 9500 quests ffxiv has 300 ok this is not fair wow is older lets compare recently launched games.

rift has over 2500. ffxiv has 300

hmmm seems as if my opinion that its unfinished has facts to back it up....

[TheVedis]

You keep saying it "harms SE" "harms SE" "harms SE"..what harm is being done? The only opinions that get deleted are trolling and inflammatory comments, aka attacking other players for being positive.

supposedely its a comspiracy and the front page is supposed to be filled with quitting threads
and if it isnt, then SE is censoring everyone and hiding the truth

even though we can see every deleted thread cuz it has a nice big red - next to it when they close and lock and delete it so we can see what they stopped

[Clydey]

The game is on the right path. I can only see it getting better, so sacrificing a few pounds per month is well worth it.

[Preypacer]

and yet this again. same crap same people. your the minority the majority is on un moderated sites telling you why this game is not ready.. i could link sites but you know.

they just get deleted because they are all bad and its indisputable harm to SE. you are the minority. I am only the minority to the same 15 trolls on this forum group

funny how you dismiss those who check out the patches and quit as their opinion don't matter. only those who plays and enjoys matter. that basically all of your arguments and its reason other sites are the majority.

so may people want to use majority.... the majority disagree that this game is even worth buying so what is the point in using that statement?

Okay... So you ignore the rest of my post, and respond with more of your typical spin-doctoring BS.

As I've already stated, on those unmoderated sites you can not verify that every person speaking out or "voting" even owns the game in the first place.

So are you prepared to back up your claim by showing that the majority of people posting on other sites do in fact own the game and do in fact stand to be directly affected by it?

Or are you just going to continue repeating the same baseless nonsense and spin over and over again in response to anyone who challenges or disagrees with what you say?

"15 trolls" on this site, eh? So, you feel the "same 15 trolls" Liked the post approving of subs in this thread 444 times as of my typing this? So, not only do you disregard the opinions of most of the over 400 people on this site who disagree with you, they're automatically trolls for doing so. If that's not a textbook perfect example of willful ignorance, I don't know what is.

You're also putting words in my mouth and arguing a strawman. Either that or you simply have horrendous reading comprehension. I don't dismiss anyone who has verifiably bought and/or has a character in the game. What I said, very clearly includes anyone who has verifiably purchased and/or has an active character in game. That includes people who haven't played the game for a year. It includes people who only check out the patches. It includes people actively playing. It includes - one more time - anyone who has actually bought the game, because they verifiably stand to be affected by SE's decisions.

I'll spell it out for you very simply. I'll even type more slowly so you can follow along...

Here is my stance summed up in 4 simple bullet points.

1. Someone who has bought the game stands to be affected by SE's decisions because they have invested time/money into the game. Their opinion has real value in the matter because the outcome could determine whether they continue to play or not.

2. Someone who has not bought the game, has invested no more money or time into it and, for all we know, has no intention of playing regardless does not stand to be affected by SE's decisions at all. Their opinion has little to no value in the matter because, either way, they're not playing.

3. On a site like ZAM or other non-official sites, the only requirement to vote or post on any topic is that you be a member of that site, including those dealing with FFXIV. On those sites, there is no way to verify that someone posting on a topic, or voting in a poll related to FFXIV even owns the game in the first place. There's no control for it. You could be someone who hates SE and wouldn't play anything they release, and you could still post in those threads or vote on those polls. There's no barrier for participation.

4. On this site, the official forums, in order to participate, post, vote, etc... You have to have bought the game and have an active character in-game. That's a requirement for participation. No game account = no forum account = you can't post/vote on anything here. Because the people voting here have verifiably invested in the game by virtue of the fact that they're posting here at all, it can be safely concluded that everyone here stands to be affected by SE's decisions going forward, be it on the subject of subscriptions or anything else affecting the game.

To be clear, in terms of whose vote is most influential, most immediate and most impactful to FFXIV's players...

Votes of Actual Game Owners > Votes of Non Game Owners

Thus... I put far more weight and value in the votes here than I do on a non-official site.

Now, I realize by now that you defer and cling desperately to the results of non fan sites because those numbers just happen to be in line with your personal views/agenda. I get it. I'm sure everyone else here does, too.

That doesn't eliminate the fact that the results of polls or votes on non-fan sites are dubious at best, due to the fact that they can be participated in by anyone, whether they own or play FFXIV or not. They can be tainted or influenced by people who have no investment in the game, nothing to lose or gain by the outcome.

I really can't explain it any more plain than that. Somehow I don't think it'll make a difference and you'll come back with your same BS as usual.

It's what you always do, after all.