About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

And that first boss in Sastasha HM will murder you.

Also the only time using Esuna on a DoT is mandatory as opposed to a pure dps loss.

[winsock]

Going to be honest, but I'd have much rather seen them put Repose in cross-role rather than Esuna.

But then you fall into similar problems with the current system

People complained about the cross class system across all roles. So many useless skills... there is little benefit to changing them up on most classes.

Now that +5 skills have desirable qualities, people are complaining that the don't have them​ all....

[dragonseth07]

But then you fall into similar problems with the current system

People complained about the cross class system across all roles. So many useless skills... there is little benefit to changing them up on most classes.

Now that +5 skills have desirable qualities, people are complaining that the don't have them​ all....

Well, duh.

People want to have choice, but then hate choice once they actually have it. Welcome to humans.

[winsock]

Well, duh.

People want to have choice, but then hate choice once they actually have it. Welcome to humans.

Lol /10 char

[AlphaSonic]

Well, duh.

People want to have choice, but then hate choice once they actually have it. Welcome to humans.

It's not choice when there's 3 or 4 mandatory or clearly better than other options.

[LegoTechnic]

But then you fall into similar problems with the current system

People complained about the cross class system across all roles. So many useless skills... there is little benefit to changing them up on most classes.

Now that +5 skills have desirable qualities, people are complaining that the don't have them​ all....

It's an issue in that the skills were taken away, so the choice is less "which of these cool abilities do you want" and more "what do you no longer want to have". This is especially true for WHM, but even as a SCH supposed benefits come alongside disheartening reductions in class mainstays (see: Lucid Dreaming and the Aetherize mana nerf).

[Ootarion]

If you want esuna, take esuna. But there is a lot of content where it doesn't matter. Allowing healers to make this decision is much better design than the cc system IMO, where taking certain skills is a must and most classes didn't get meaningful choice.

But if the Cleansers are built into their respective Classes (WHM, AST and SCH respectively) then this problem being discussed wouldnt even be discussed. The point people are making here is that if the Cleansers remain built into their respective Healers, we can still make the choice of whether we need it or not and WOULDNT NEED to sacrifice an Optional Ability slot to do so. I really dont get why people are fighting this undeniable fact.

You said "Where taking certain skills is a must" I can name several of the now Cross Role abilities that had before now, always been built into their respective classes

For White Mage they had: Esuna, Divine Seal (20% heal buff), Protect, Shroud of Saints (MP Regen and Enmity Reduction). White Mages had these as part of their core kit since FFXIV began. Why do they NOW need to be in the Cross Role?

Astrologian: Exalted Detriment (their version of Esuna), Synastry (has a 20% heal buff component) and Luminiferous Aether (MP Regen but doesnt reduce Enmity by half). ASTs needed to Cross Class Protect to use it. Again same thing with AST, they have their own debuff remover, their own heal buff, and they have their own MP Regen. Why do these need to be put into the Cross Role?

Scholar: They have Leeches (their version of Esuna), Dissipation (has a 20% Heal buff component) and Aetherflow (which restores 20% of their missing MP which is quite a chunk). They dont have an MP Regen that is similar in function to Luminiferous Aether or Shroud of Saints but they none the less can use Aetherflow and Energy Drain to keep their MP up. So AGAIN I have to ask, why do they need to lose these abilities to the Cross Role?

All these abilities that Ive mentioned.

1) Luminiferous Aether and Shroud of Saints, are being ripped unreasonably from AST and WHM respectively and put into the Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming, which is unnecessary!

2) Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches, are all being unreasonably taken away from their respective healers and combined into one ability called Esuna within the Cross Role, which is also unnecessary

3) The Heal Buff component of Synastry (AST), Divine Seal and the Heal Buff component of Dissipation (SCH) are ALSO unreasonably being ripped from their respective healers and shoved into the Cross Role as Largesse.

So I ask you again, all of these abilities are built into their respective healers right NOW, but in SB we might need to waste all 5 of the Optional Slots just to USE them and for what? Because we might not need them? For THAT reason alone they are being taken off their respective healers as built in abilities? Im sorry but that is a weak excuse. IF I dont need my Esuna/Exalted Detriment in any given moment I just dont click the button it is placed on in my hotbar, but the moment it is needed, boom, muscle memory takes over and I use it! I DO NOT NEED any of these listed abilities thrown into the Cross Role. So many of us have said that they will be taking nothing but Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming and Largesse as their most definite choices and NOTHING ELSE ever! So what in the holy heck does this actually solve? Nothing at all!

God why cant people see this? The only abilities that should be in that Cross Role for healers are Cleric Stance, Rescue, Break, Eye for an Eye, Surecast and Swiftcast (though personally I feel Swiftcast should be core built into even Healers but Im fine either way with it being a Cross Role or otherwise)! Yes this means that Healers would only have 6 Cross Role abilities but so what? They have no legit reason to be shoving Cleansers, MP Regens and Heal Buffs which are important to the healer's core kit, into the Cross Role, and if they do, they need to explain why, which they havent! Even if you guys feel like Cleansers are of no importance to the Core Kit and even if they really were, you CANNOT sit there and expect anyone to believe that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are not important, goodness there are so many high damage fights out there that require a good amount of heavy healing that Im REALLY HAPPY that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are core built.

Addendum: Furthermore I am aware that with the videos we've seen so far, that everything we are all talking about is subject to change. But if things are the way we have seen them, there is no way I am going to lay down and agree to this, and I am very certain there will be others. WE DONT NEED to have these abilities thrown into Cross Role, we dont NEED to have a total of 10! If these abilities are Core Built then you DONT HAVE TO WORRY about them being among your 5 choices out of the list of 10 abilities in the Cross Role.

You guys talk so much about this giving us choices, when the reality is, 5 of those choices are normally core built, and there has never been anything wrong with that, I see no benefit to this, this doesnt help, it infact just gives me 10 things to pick from but Im going to pick what I am familiar with and KEEP USING those, so again, how does this give me choice? I cant make use of the other 5 abilities because I dont see them as important enough to warrant losing what I know are the best choices. AGAIN, if they remained Core Built then what is the problem with having just 6 to choose from? We'd have 5 equipped and one not being used, and if needed we can swap that one ability in for a fairly big combination difference.

For example

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Break

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Break, Swiftcast

and so on! You can make quite a few different combos with having just 6 abilities in which you can only use 5 at a time!

[Mogu86]

Call me noob but i really don't want to think if the dungeon/raid/whatever i'm going to do requires or not a cleanse come on! Esuna it's a must-have for me. In 4 man run you need it anyway, with roulettes you can't change before but after you see what you are doing (ppl don't even wait for protect, lets see if they wait a change skill everytime).

[Seraphyna]

But if the Cleansers are built into their respective Classes (WHM, AST and SCH respectively) then this problem being discussed wouldnt even be discussed. The point people are making here is that if the Cleansers remain built into their respective Healers, we can still make the choice of whether we need it or not and WOULDNT NEED to sacrifice an Optional Ability slot to do so. I really dont get why people are fighting this undeniable fact.

You said "Where taking certain skills is a must" I can name several of the now Cross Role abilities that had before now, always been built into their respective classes

For White Mage they had: Esuna, Divine Seal (20% heal buff), Protect, Shroud of Saints (MP Regen and Enmity Reduction). White Mages had these as part of their core kit since FFXIV began. Why do they NOW need to be in the Cross Role?

Astrologian: Exalted Detriment (their version of Esuna), Synastry (has a 20% heal buff component) and Luminiferous Aether (MP Regen but doesnt reduce Enmity by half). ASTs needed to Cross Class Protect to use it. Again same thing with AST, they have their own debuff remover, their own heal buff, and they have their own MP Regen. Why do these need to be put into the Cross Role?

Scholar: They have Leeches (their version of Esuna), Dissipation (has a 20% Heal buff component) and Aetherflow (which restores 20% of their missing MP which is quite a chunk). They dont have an MP Regen that is similar in function to Luminiferous Aether or Shroud of Saints but they none the less can use Aetherflow and Energy Drain to keep their MP up. So AGAIN I have to ask, why do they need to lose these abilities to the Cross Role?

All these abilities that Ive mentioned.

1) Luminiferous Aether and Shroud of Saints, are being ripped unreasonably from AST and WHM respectively and put into the Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming, which is unnecessary!

2) Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches, are all being unreasonably taken away from their respective healers and combined into one ability called Esuna within the Cross Role, which is also unnecessary

3) The Heal Buff component of Synastry (AST), Divine Seal and the Heal Buff component of Dissipation (SCH) are ALSO unreasonably being ripped from their respective healers and shoved into the Cross Role as Largesse.

So I ask you again, all of these abilities are built into their respective healers right NOW, but in SB we might need to waste all 5 of the Optional Slots just to USE them and for what? Because we might not need them? For THAT reason alone they are being taken off their respective healers as built in abilities? Im sorry but that is a weak excuse. IF I dont need my Esuna/Exalted Detriment in any given moment I just dont click the button it is placed on in my hotbar, but the moment it is needed, boom, muscle memory takes over and I use it! I DO NOT NEED any of these listed abilities thrown into the Cross Role. So many of us have said that they will be taking nothing but Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming and Largesse as their most definite choices and NOTHING ELSE ever! So what in the holy heck does this actually solve? Nothing at all!

God why cant people see this? The only abilities that should be in that Cross Role for healers are Cleric Stance, Rescue, Break, Eye for an Eye, Surecast and Swiftcast (though personally I feel Swiftcast should be core built into even Healers but Im fine either way with it being a Cross Role or otherwise)! Yes this means that Healers would only have 6 Cross Role abilities but so what? They have no legit reason to be shoving Cleansers, MP Regens and Heal Buffs which are important to the healer's core kit, into the Cross Role, and if they do, they need to explain why, which they havent! Even if you guys feel like Cleansers are of no importance to the Core Kit and even if they really were, you CANNOT sit there and expect anyone to believe that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are not important, goodness there are so many high damage fights out there that require a good amount of heavy healing that Im REALLY HAPPY that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are core built.

Addendum: Furthermore I am aware that with the videos we've seen so far, that everything we are all talking about is subject to change. But if things are the way we have seen them, there is no way I am going to lay down and agree to this, and I am very certain there will be others. WE DONT NEED to have these abilities thrown into Cross Role, we dont NEED to have a total of 10! If these abilities are Core Built then you DONT HAVE TO WORRY about them being among your 5 choices out of the list of 10 abilities in the Cross Role.

You guys talk so much about this giving us choices, when the reality is, 5 of those choices are normally core built, and there has never been anything wrong with that, I see no benefit to this, this doesnt help, it infact just gives me 10 things to pick from but Im going to pick what I am familiar with and KEEP USING those, so again, how does this give me choice? I cant make use of the other 5 abilities because I dont see them as important enough to warrant losing what I know are the best choices. AGAIN, if they remained Core Built then what is the problem with having just 6 to choose from? We'd have 5 equipped and one not being used, and if needed we can swap that one ability in for a fairly big combination difference.

For example

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Break

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Break, Swiftcast

and so on! You can make quite a few different combos with having just 6 abilities in which you can only use 5 at a time!

Why can't people see this... Because people are blind and only see what they want to see. You make REALLY good arguments too.

It so seems that SE wants to do subjobs... without the subjobs (because it's too "FFXI")... to give options.. yet relegate us to use specific abilities anyways! So what's the point of all this? There's really no choice. You're going to always choose specific abilities EVERY time. So why bother with this. Why? What is the point?

They could have easily just remade it so that a quest for each job gave protect, esuna, w/e the stupid named MP regen is now, LD, and made them universal. But no, they do this cross class BS. You went full retard SE... you never go full retard...

[Maku]

(ppl don't even wait for protect, lets see if they wait a change skill every time).

This over and over and over again. We realize that roulettes and stuff are easy and it doesn't REALLY matter but come on we like to run effectively and being able to remove heavy can make me have to heal less and DPS more.

If every single healer had these thing in their kit already why bother making them role actions? It just doesn't have any logical explanation.

Protect, E4E, Surecast, Swiftcast are understandable. But cleanser, H% boost, and MP recover are already set in each class in some fashion.

Really this only helps SCH in the long run cause now we have even more MP recovering ability and can DPS even more. Too bad our DPS got nerfed with the bane nerf.