DRK is going to be Nerfed in Stormblood

[Niyuka]

"the Intention of the design, so it's good"? that's the result? I could tell you a dozen very cynical "Intention of the designs" made during history, which didnt result "good".

Beeing more bored to play a game is never a good result.



/irony off

Let me spell it out for you: Game has too few tanks. You introduce 2 really cool DPS classes on top that people will want to pick up. People dont tank because its too much stress, responsibility, getting flamed if you dont do things right, being too busy esp. in the case of DRK etc.
You need more tanks. As a designer, its about numbers, not individuals: Get more people to play tanks, because for every tank in group content, 2 DPS and 1 healer are happier. "40 minute queues for cool new class" is a headline as toxic as anything to a new game release.
Did people complain tanks were too boring to play and they would rather pick more difficult classes? I dont think so.

Making tanks busy and difficult and with a big skill factor might appease a tiny minority of current players, but we already found out this is not enough people to service the playerbase. Like it or not, in FFXIV tanks are a service of the game to allow the bigger paying majority to do the content they like to do, in the way they want to.

Full disclosure: I am a DRK main. I love difficult games. I AGREE with you in spirit. But I am the minority, and I know it.

[Talec]

Let me spell it out for you: Game has too few tanks. You introduce 2 really cool DPS classes on top that people will want to pick up. People dont tank because its too much stress, responsibility, getting flamed if you dont do things right, being too busy esp. in the case of DRK etc.
You need more tanks. As a designer, its about numbers, not individuals: Get more people to play tanks, because for every tank in group content, 2 DPS and 1 healer are happier. "40 minute queues for cool new class" is a headline as toxic as anything to a new game release.
Did people complain tanks were too boring to play and they would rather pick more difficult classes? I dont think so.

Making tanks busy and difficult and with a big skill factor might appease a tiny minority of current players, but we already found out this is not enough people to service the playerbase. Like it or not, in FFXIV tanks are a service of the game to allow the bigger paying majority to do the content they like to do, in the way they want to.

Full disclosure: I am a DRK main. I love difficult games. I AGREE with you in spirit. But I am the minority, and I know it.

With utmost respect: I sincerely doubt such simple voodo-mathematics.

As an DRK-main and as an informed Player you should know how many currently-tanks gonna Change to DD with SB. Different reasons [tl;dr]... but basicaly they decide for a DD that Looks like he has some cool gameplay. And then there are Players like me. Im gonna Change from a DRK into a SMN aswell. But I dont do it, because I would think SMN looks particular superior cool, it's because I feel like DRK was completely left behind.

While I may not be the majority, I'm 100% positive not the only one who is gonna dropping tank because they do not look exiting to play anymore.

So their "Intention" - as you stated it - was, to lose a percentage of tanks for sure in order for the HOPE that new Players will pick it up. Sorry but I dropped the /irony off command already, so I can't write now, how very smart I think that is.

[Reynhart]

Get more people to play tanks

That's exactly the reason why we didn't have a new tank. Dark Knight, despite being one of the most requested jobs, did not increase the tank population in HW.

And it's far too early to judge if SAM and RDM wil actually make this population decrease in the long run...which I really doubt.

Did people complain tanks were too boring to play and they would rather pick more difficult classes? I dont think so.

Weren't you there for the "boring PLD 1-2-3 repeat" threads ? Don't you see the complain about DRK losing one combo in their rotation ?

[Niyuka]

Yes, they risk losing some long-time tanks in hope of attracting new ones. Its the only real move I can see, because AS IT IS there are nowhere near enough tanks, and the situation will worsen at least temporarily.
If what you two suggest is true, that there is a certain fixed number of potential tank players that can only decrease with changes, but never increase - then the entire move would be pointless, and we are basically destined to have massive queue issues forever.

I dont believe it, others dont believe it. I know people who have never in their MMO life played a tank who pick up DRK now (ok, admittedly, its just 2 ppl, so purely anecdotal) because they like the cool look, but hated the overloaded busy playstyle early on.

SE cannot afford to just shrug off the waiting times. They have to do SOMETHING. They (and me) believe that making tanks more complex and difficult is SURELY not attracting more players. They (and me) believe making the act of TANKING harder and more challenging will probably make it even worse. The status quo is not good. So they try a change in the last direction they see for themselves, and see what happens.
You have to take a risk and change things when the status quo is not working.

If i could name a way to make tanks and tanking more attractive to players that I have seen work anywhere, I would. The only thing I have seen in other games is to make tanks super-simple to play, badass OP to play, with cool looks and lots of perks. The game is called WoW, and it has solved at least parts of its tank crisis long ago, by going the route we go now.

[Reynhart]

SE cannot afford to just shrug off the waiting times. They have to do SOMETHING.

Problem is, they're not the only ones to blame for that. It's well know that less people love tanking and healing than DPSing, because of the burden and the responsability (And also the fact that DPS are quick to blame them for everything...)

They give several bonuses as an incentive, faster XP, more gils, special mounts, etc...but in the end, they can't do that much. Back in 2.x, PLD was everything but an overloaded playstyle, yet people didn't tank more.

From a certain point of view, it's like PvP. I'm not a big fan of PvP, but, truth be told, when I tried, it was fun. But the queue times can be horrendously long. Why ? Because few people participate in PvP. And few people participate partly because the queue times are long, and the queue times are long because...

The game is called WoW, and it has solved at least parts of its tank crisis long ago, by going the route we go now.

Isn't WoW the game where it was not uncommon to have a tank leading the parse in raids ?

[Azreal]

Tanks haven't lead parses in WoW for years.

What they did was make encounters that keep both tanks busy most of the fight, there is no "off tank ". To call tanks OP in WoW is also silly, the entire game however is dumber down now and somewhat boring, it reached a point where raiding is either stupidly easy or excessively punishing.

What I find interesting about this thread is how it's not really about complexity or skill, just the poster wants his "tank " or heals to be able to dps to feel special.

[Talec]

Problem is, they're not the only ones to blame for that. It's well know that less people love tanking and healing than DPSing, because of the burden and the responsability (And also the fact that DPS are quick to blame them for everything...)

You know... some people tend to give that as an excuse. But with 18 years of MMORPG experience I came to the conclusion, that the truth ist simple: The majority of the people love to see big numbers. They literally getting wet from high dmg numbers. The reason the don't do Tanks or Healers is, that they not feel like they "finishing" the enemies of, but instead just do the boring sidekick part for the DDs. And to be honest, thats true. A Good Tank could tank to all eternity, a good healer could heal him to all eternity. But progressing is always made by the DDs. Better DDs clear dungeons faster. That mindset is, what people brings to DDs.

It would actually help more, if Tanks and healers would be able to do the same dmg as DDs in terms of single content. Leveling as a Healer feels terrible. You either have to have a huge equipment difference or you have to invest so much more time in every singlecontent you do: leveling, doing quests, etc.

By makeing the Jobs more boring, you don't help the situation.

I know people who have never in their MMO life played a tank who pick up DRK now (ok, admittedly, its just 2 ppl, so purely anecdotal)

Well I know six people who stop playing a tank, so what? Wanna allocate? Looks like more win for my argument.

Beside your argument is invalid otherwisely as well. If they really would hope to attract more Players with boring tank-gameplay, the Logical step would also be in making the DDs more boring, because that distracts too many Players away from the tanks.

As far as I can see, RDM does look quite fabolous instead of boring, NIN goes all-Naruto, SAM has potency-finishers that's gonna crit in 5 digits, Dragoons throw Dragons at the enemies now and SMN summons fu*kin Bahamut.

[bswpayton]

You know... some people tend to give that as an excuse. But with 18 years of MMORPG experience I came to the conclusion, that the truth ist simple: The majority of the people love to see big numbers. They literally getting wet from high dmg numbers. , .

I never had any of the issues ur mentioning , and Also as a tank especially on my palidan I have kept myself alive to many times to count with clemency and doing damage. There are videos of all tank only parties doing every peice of content in the game. People dps cause they dont wana be criticized when they make a mistake like a tank would be, and yes they like big numbers sure but, many dont like feeling like they let the team down either so they dont tank. But what SE is doing now isnt good in my opinion tho to the tanks , many tanks do enjoy to tank in dps stance and stance dance, and if they take that option away Im afraid they may lose more thanks than they think.

[Talec]

The fact, that there exist People who enjoy tanking beside dmg numbers doesn't nullify the Argument. Of course there are, otherwise we wouldn't have any tanks. Me for myself, I enjoy tanking the most, when I can pack very big Groups, gather them together, survive the dmg und evade a hell lot of AoEs. I really like that. More than seeing big dmg numbers.

But that doesn't mean it's the same for the majority. And the fact, that those all-tank-Videos exist hints more towards how People see it as an exceptional achievement, to finish something off with weak tanks. It's a push your Limits and enter a part of gameplay, nobody would give to you.

[Venjenz]

What I find interesting about this thread is how it's not really about complexity or skill, just the poster wants his "tank " or heals to be able to dps to feel special.

Drinking the meta koolaid. All about MOAR DEEPZ. Faster runs, faster, faster, faster. Funny thing, the one mechanic that tanks can do to speed up runs the most comes down to being tankier. Mass pulling for big AE is the king speed things up technique, and that is about HP, cooldowns, knowing the zone, position, etc. DPS is totally secondary in the mass pull equation, but nothing speeds up a run better. Thing is, you need the DPS to be on the ball that. Good luck.