About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Aramina]

That may be, but this means that the new skills, like Break and Rescue, will rarely see use, cause anyone with a brain will know to move away from an AoE or if any other such telegraphed attack is about to hit them, granted I know people wont always do so, but we shouldnt have to waste a slot on an honestly useless skill when people need to pay attention and run out of things before they happen. Also I was saying that Nyghtmarerobu wasnt getting me.

They will be situational, but in the situations they would be good for is enough.

The new system allows people who are able to coordinate Cross Role skills with each other to pick depending on the fight they are doing. Casual players like me and yourself will probably pick the same basic set of skills that will assume we are the only healer in the content or cannot realistically coordinate with a co-healer. This is fine and doesn't really change the amount of flexibility that we currently have with cross class.

Yesssssss. You did better with wording what I was trying to say.

[Ootarion]

You seem to be forgetting that current cross class is already very limited in terms of choice.

That isnt what concerns me, what concerns me is that they've taken core skills and put them into the Cross Role, which makes zero sense.

Also Aramina, granted, but again, even in the situations where they could be used, I am not likely to use them ever because to many of my important abilities as a healer, are now lopped in with the Cross Role abilities. Im not about to change what Ive gotten used to, because SE isnt thinking this through D:

Also btw, again, Aramina and Taika, I want to stress that I didnt intend on insulting anyone or talking down to anyone, so once more, my apologies.

Of course, and I even admitted that in a previous post.

I guess the disconnect betweeen me/Phixx and you is you are focused on "they took my stuff!" and we are focused on "we will still heal in the same way". No one is wrong for being upset they took their stuff.... because they did and it sucks and etc etc, but functionally you will be the same.

edit: Also I am not offended in the least, and likewise, hopefully I didn't offend anyone as that wasn't my intent. Just kinda focused on "What's done is done, where do we go from here?" if that makes sense.

It's not that im focused on the they took my stuff part, I understand that functionally we will be the same, I just dont like how they are going about it, cause like Ive been saying and what others have said, stuff like, Esuna for example, SHOULDNT be a Cross Role because people are always gonna have it as will they likely take Largesse and Lucid Dream, which should have stayed as built in buffs to Healers, and not Cross Roled, make sense?

I am of the same mind as Aramina. As a WoW player who went through the Legion ability prune I lost baseline class skills to the talent tree and can absolutely agree that it sucks and feels bad. But on the other hand, we will be fine, you won't lose your ability to heal. To me it feels like we will be able to take the abilities we consider "baseline" and the more skilled players and the ones that can coordinate not taking those abilities will get to experiment with the newer ones that don't seem so mandatory.

Heck, who knows, sometime running experts you might decide you don't actually need Largesse or similar and decide to switch abilities as you get more comfortable with the content. (Or by yanking RDMs out of melee after they use their gap closer :P)

I went through the WoW Legion Ability Prune as well, but most of the skills I cared about were not even thrown into the Talent Tree, and I saw this as the case with most other classes, so I cant really say that I feel at all upset with the WoW ability Prune, but stuff like Debuff Removers were never put in there, not to my knowledge, least not the ones that are part of the core kit of a class.

Addendum: I mean I am not totally unhappy with the Cross Role system, but...like Ive said, it feels like SE did not think this through and it's really depressing and I hope they change this D:

[Aramina]

Also Aramina, granted, but again, even in the situations where they could be used, I am not likely to use them ever because to many of my important abilities as a healer, are now lopped in with the Cross Role abilities.

Of course, and I even admitted that in a previous post.

I guess the disconnect betweeen me/Phixx and you is you are focused on "they took my stuff!" and we are focused on "we will still heal in the same way". No one is wrong for being upset they took their stuff.... because they did and it sucks and etc etc, but functionally you will be the same.

edit: Also I am not offended in the least, and likewise, hopefully I didn't offend anyone as that wasn't my intent. Just kinda focused on "What's done is done, where do we go from here?" if that makes sense.

[Phixx]

That isnt what concerns me, what concerns me is that they've taken core skills and put them into the Cross Role, which makes zero sense.

I am of the same mind as Aramina. As a WoW player who went through the Legion ability prune I lost baseline class skills to the talent tree and can absolutely agree that it sucks and feels bad. But on the other hand, we will be fine, you won't lose your ability to heal. To me it feels like we will be able to take the abilities we consider "baseline" and the more skilled players and the ones that can coordinate not taking those abilities will get to experiment with the newer ones that don't seem so mandatory.

Heck, who knows, sometime running experts you might decide you don't actually need Largesse or similar and decide to switch abilities as you get more comfortable with the content. (Or by yanking RDMs out of melee after they use their gap closer :P)

[MrSmiley]

I agree, a lot of "must haves" were slapped into cross class instead if staying baseline, the result is I see 10 skills, but 4 I MUST have...leaving one choice, and the more interesting situational ones likely to fall the wayside permanently.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Two things

1) How about we move most if not all of your Enmity generators as a tank to Cross Role?

2) Esuna, Exalted Detriment, Leeches, Saints Shroud and Luminiferous Aether were always built into their respective classes and DIDNT need to be Cross Classed, now to use them we MUST Cross Role them, which means wasting Cross Role slots which could instead be used for things like the new Cleric Stance, Break, Surecast, Rescue and Eye for an Eye, instead the Cross Role menu is now cluttered up with stuff that SHOULDNT BE in there PLUS the new stuff, why is this so hard to understand? Also I never quite understood why Protect was a Cross Class and why Cleric Stance needed to be a Cross Class to, when those should have been built into all healers to begin with, but meh.

My point still stands and if you dont see my point then I dont know if I can help you understand or not.

I understand your point. I think you have very little to stand on. Your cherry picking something that is a blessing in disguise by covering it up with a "But I lost all of this!!". You didn't lose it, it just got moved to something else. Cross roles were made to be a blanket area for the main roles to help people from having to worry about leveling 3-5 different classes to get everything they needed. Its much more accessible for new players, and the vets will have things to experiment with, and the Pro's can min/max it to their raid static set-ups. Its a win all around, and yet, here we are, asking for it to go back to the way it was for what? So you can have the same meaningless choices? Surecast is bleh always has been. Break is the slow that was lost from stone 1 and stella, which only saw play in Raid. Rescue is a cool tool, but is it, and will it be really useful, that remains to be seen. Eye was always a 100% choice for crossclass before, so I don't even know why this is being brought up, same with cleric stance.

And just to dip into your tank idea, tanks got hit too. Rampart, voke, awareness, convalescene, Reprisal, Dark Dance, lowblow. All of these were pulled from all tanks and thrown into the pool, and to be honest, its a great change and makes the tank pool competitive again, instead of people worrying about the drk/war meta. Everyone has everything and it just makes it more fair across the board. Same can be said for healers.

[Ayer2015]

Comparatively speaking Provoke is necessary as well and is now a job skill. Also why have 3 skills that do the same thing?

[Acidblood]

In theory, I like the idea of picking different role skills depending on the fight (if you need Esuna or not etc.) and setup (can have 1 healer take Protect and the other Esuna etc.). Let's see how this will work in practice.

That may work in slower paced MMOs, or even savage raiding, where setting up for a fight is just an expected part of the gameplay... but I wouldn't bet on the average player taking too kindly to every dungeon run starting with 'sec guys, just gotta setup my cross-roles', or worse, half way through a fight, 'f*ck, sorry, forgot to swap in Esuna'... (and yet somehow WHM still has Repose as a class action???)

The other option I guess is that there will no longer be any truly deadly, or even really annoying, debuffs (outside of maybe savage raids), in which case FFXIV just got a whole lot more boring...

Comparatively speaking Provoke is necessary as well and is now a job skill. Also why have 3 skills that do the same thing?

Only for tank swaps, and as you point out, there are now two additional options for handling such mechanics... that said, yeah, personally I would have kept it as a job ability and tried to put something more interesting into the cross-role than an extremely situational (to the point that content would need to be designed for it) AoE provoke.

The big one for me with Tanks though is Rampart... as if any decent Tank isn't going to take it. Also, for me, it just doesn't fit the theme of WAR, and if they didn't want Shadowskin to be a straight copy they could have done something interesting with it (like merging it with Shadow Wall, itself almost a direct copy of Sentinel, and having it change based on Dark Arts). Actually, even putting Sentinel, a much more situational ability due to its cooldown, into cross-role would have made more sense.

I agree, a lot of "must haves" were slapped into cross class instead if staying baseline, the result is I see 10 skills, but 4 I MUST have...leaving one choice, and the more interesting situational ones likely to fall the wayside permanently.

Yep, not sure about anyone else, but my cross-roles are going to be set and forget, screw swapping them out for specific content (savage raids possibly excepted)... i.e. even the 5% of the new Cleric Stance is in no way worth the hassle of swapping out Protect / Esuna, despite how infrequent / situation their use may be.

[Ootarion]

Everyone has everything and it just makes it more fair across the board. Same can be said for healers.

You really do not understand my point....

White Mage already has Esuna built into the class, Astrologian has Exalted Detriment and Scholar has Leeches, all of these spells remove debuffs and are built into these three classes and they dont need to cross class them, WHY do these need to be ONE spell that is now going to be a Cross Role!? it....makes....no....sense! Same thing for how spells like Shroud of Saints for WHM and Luminiferous Aether are being replaced with the ability Lucid Dreaming which is oh hello another Cross Role skill when they already had MP regenerative abilities BUILT into their classes. SCH and Summoner I rarely see have MP problems since Aetherflow is so darn good with replenishing it, IF ANYTHING they should give a new core built spell to SCH and maybe SMN that refreshes MP over time, but again, Ive rarely seen them need it >:l.

Why are you defending this? I dont know if it is your intention or not but you are coming off as someone who refuses to acknowledge when devs they are fans of make a mistake because you like them so much you think them incapable of making mistakes :/

[OcieKo]

Don't say it again, or it might become true...

But nobody mentioned in this thread that SCH has a party-wide esuna... At least sch won't need to cross class it that bad...
SCH also have a healing bonus, while both WHM ans AST are losing theirs...

SCHs also lose a lot of spot healing with theirs by merit of losing the faerie to use their healing buff. TBH even if SCH lost Dissipation they wouldve won that round.

Snip.

Actually AST didn't have access to Virus/Eye for an Eye at all before. CNJ/THM was it so pretty much, CS/Prot/Swift/Stoneskin then Surecast or Blizzard 2 on opinion/level... Eithervway you took it to have 5/5 not cause you needed either.