Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

[LaylaTsarra]

The fact of the matter is that Yoshi-P is fallible. I don't think his opinion is worthless, but in this instance his statement is not reflective of the meta that players have created and is erroneous as a result. That is to say, Yoshi-P can say one thing, but the playerbase will decide what is or is not acceptable in a given setting.

You mean the raiding community for the most part when you talk about player base? I never see healers called out for not dps'ing in DF. The forum is an entirely different animal and for the most part (not everyone) it's that community which is the loudest here about how others should be playing. And furthermore the threats about kicking others are what generate a LOT OF THE DISCORD related to topics like this.

Yoshi-P understands the community a lot better than many here are willing to give him credit for.

[Smol]

You mean the raiding community for the most part when you talk about player base?

I dunno...I don't think you have to be raiding to be annoyed at a healer who occasionally casts a regen or a medica II and then spends all of their downtime spamming emotes :<

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Another Youtube interview with Yoshida paints a different picture on his stance. Essentially, the person paraphrased Yoshida's opinion as, "If we didn't want healers to DPS, we just would have removed Cleric Stance altogether."

https://youtu.be/8IpUtQrqCQg?t=17m10s

[ShanaMia]

A point a lot are missing about YoshiP's comment is that the question posed about healer DPS was a pretty loaded one which he opted to ineffectively sidestep by stating developer expectations during design. The question effectively told him to state whether the devs were choosing sides in this argument with their design changes, knowingly favoring the community-driven expectation for healers to DPS. If I were YoshiP, I wouldn't touch that question with a 10-foot pole. Compare that to the Famitsu interview where he's asked to elaborate on the reasoning behind the healer changes and he's able to show that he does want healers to DPS more, just not in a forced manner, thus the option of removing stance dancing to entice those who may have found it terrifying to deal with.

YoshiP isn't advocating laziness by any means. He's said time and time again that you should be trying to do something for the group at all times and if healing isn't involved, throw out some damage spells. In this particular discussion, there's a lot of people on both sides that are twisting words given by the devs and the other people in the discussion and using quite a level of mental gymnastics in order to drive some sort of extremist argument that if you aren't on their side, you're the enemy and probably retarded. Meanwhile, perfectly reasonable posts are utterly ignored because they're not easy to lash out against. I'm extremely hesitant to even call this a discussion by any means, it seems more like a dumpster fire.

[Stormbad]

But WHM's CS creates a problem where even triggering it wastes CD, so the best I get away with is CS-DoT-DoT-CS or CS-Holy/Aero III-CS otherwise the tank ends down around 30%. Again, it's situational. I had a run of Stone Vigil today, or maybe it was yesterday where everyone wiped 5 minutes into the dungeon. I'm always looking at what the Tank is doing in the party bar, and this tank started in Sword-Oath and then hit every single CD and then ran into the closest mobs. No Shield Oath, apparently he hadn't even done the level 40 Paladin quest for it. I don't tell tanks how to do their job, but one of the DPS's pointed it out to the Tank. So we just continued the dungeon and it took a good 45 minutes with wipes only on trash. This goes back to my statement in other comments about regen. Every single heal cast, ripped the enmity from the Tank. So I could only use regen during the bosses, and the tank died at the second and third boss (given probably a newbie at that content.) Like, it doesn't tick me off to play with a bad tank, it ticks me off that tank quality swings VERY wide, and what makes DPS viable on WHM is the tank losing HP slowly or not at all by using the right CD's.

What you don't seem to realize is that what you're arguing and what the community is saying about healer dps is the same thing. The pro-dps camp isn't asking for perfection or dps on par with a DPS job, they are asking a healer to not be idle, to be mindful of the situation and the people and adjust accordingly. In your statement, you just described an adjustment you had to make because of an undergeared, underskilled new tank, it's all situational. Great, you probably weren't idle and probably were always casting. Guess what? You have satisfied the majority of the pro-dps camp right there.

Now on the flip side, you describe that you are aware and perceptive of the group's gear and skill level and adjust your healer style to suit the needs of the group, but your video you linked earlier, you hardly did any of that. There was no risk of ripping aggro and there was no risk of the tank dying and there were many times you overhealed for no reason, sat idle, I mean if you are concerned about mana management, you didn't even use the free heals. So it truly confuses me that you say you do one thing (being able to adjust to the group and justifying why you heal only) but your video shows you do something completely different (not adjusting, not showing awareness of your heals, not even using your skills).

[Ayer2015]

101 pages of people arguing, where both sides think their position is the majority

[Neophyte]

ShanaMia is right, Yoshis words got twisted a lot.

Also people shpuld stress more that this "i play how i want" is only for low dofficult dungeons. Everyone else
should do:

Since things are more serious in raiding, on the other hand, you'll definitely want to DPS for the first clear. As item levels go up and you're after repeat clears, the roles may shift. (laughs)

and

On the other hand, you're really asked to push the role in end-game content. And in reality, it's likely that you'll need to look at elements besides just healing in those situations depending on your job composition and the skill level of the group.

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/13...ew-Translation

He just don't want scubs in dungeons under pressure.
He said 'dealing dps in dungeons is optional' because playing good in dungeons is optional.

[Evergrey]

101 pages of people arguing, where both sides think their position is the majority

Welcome to the Internet.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Everyone thinks they're on 4chan or reddit. You know, sites that moderation is just slightly above absent, rudeness and belligerent behavior isn't punished, they're praised for sticking it to people they feel are beneath them.

Oh, stop playing the victim. People, myself included, have taken to poking fun because of your profound lack of healing knowledge despite your large ego. Numerous people tried explaining how to you could heal better; Miste posted a video with inferior gear; I offered you a full rotation I used even at close to min ilvl requirements. You simply refused to listen and would rather stick to your own hubris. Your video was disliked not because of "mean bullies on the internet" but due to your obnoxious attitude towards everyone who hasn't agreed with your opinions.

I find that the CS is an extreme hindrance, particularly in sub-50 content. Your cast time decreases over time, but peoples skill levels are not consistent from dungeon to dungeon. Like I did "The Aetherochemical Research Facility" earlier today. I was playing it and that's probably the most DPS I've been able to do in a level 60 dungeon, and that was with the tank primarily being in Sword-Oath the entire time, and pulling everything to one group. It's all situational.

I play SCH much differently, because yeah SCH feels like it has downtime if you don't DPS, and SCH is rarely in a pinch for mana. That is something that becomes painfully obvious on 8-man content.

But WHM's CS creates a problem where even triggering it wastes CD, so the best I get away with is CS-DoT-DoT-CS or CS-Holy/Aero III-CS otherwise the tank ends down around 30%. Again, it's situational. I had a run of Stone Vigil today, or maybe it was yesterday where everyone wiped 5 minutes into the dungeon. I'm always looking at what the Tank is doing in the party bar, and this tank started in Sword-Oath and then hit every single CD and then ran into the closest mobs. No Shield Oath, apparently he hadn't even done the level 40 Paladin quest for it. I don't tell tanks how to do their job, but one of the DPS's pointed it out to the Tank. So we just continued the dungeon and it took a good 45 minutes with wipes only on trash. This goes back to my statement in other comments about regen. Every single heal cast, ripped the enmity from the Tank. So I could only use regen during the bosses, and the tank died at the second and third boss (given probably a newbie at that content.) Like, it doesn't tick me off to play with a bad tank, it ticks me off that tank quality swings VERY wide, and what makes DPS viable on WHM is the tank losing HP slowly or not at all by using the right CD's.

Like I'm not sure if anyone noticed when they watched my video, I also cancel a cure casts by intentionally moving if I start casting something and then decide that Medica would be better. I only have two macros, one for "raise everyone" and one for "blow all the CD's - Medica II" which I only only use if the party is below 50%.

Case in point. The only hindrance Cleric Stance has is occasional moments where you'll inadvertently be locked back into it. Practice typically alleviates this problem, especially as you'll find you can weave in and out during the cast of an ability. I, for instance, will drop Cleric while casting say, Malefic. That way I avoid the momentary idleness that otherwise occurs. Even if you didn't, you had ample time to switch stances as you quite literally were doing nothing. Either you idled, waiting for the slightest bit of damage or you used an inefficient Cure on a target with 95% HP. Once again, you are justifying bad healer play on the basis of idiots in DF. I had a similar instance in Stone Vigil where I had to tell the tank three times to put on Shield. The group eventually kicked them. If the tank cannot hold aggro or use their base stances, no onus is placed on the healer to deal with their incompetence.

How about instead of trying to leap through an absurd number of hoops, arguing with veteran healers of all levels of experience and resorting to a tired victim complex, you take a moment and self reflect: "Are all the people posting here truly wrong or am maybe I mistaken?" You might actually learn something.

[Neophyte]

101 pages of people arguing, where both sides think their position is the majority

In Yoshis Eyes the many healers wants to do damage (more easily). If not, he's not following any logic saying things like

Yoshida: So we decided to calculate healers' attack magic potency based on MND. Since you no longer need Cleric Stance, you can Holy whenever you feel like it. After stunning the enemies with Swiftcast Holy, you can then catch up with heals. With this increased level of comfort, the number of people participating in instanced dungeons as healer will definitely go up.