How can people justify Hraesvelgr's actions?! [spoilers]

[Alleo]

I am quite sure that people would react quite a lot like him if they lose a family member. Also lets not forget that, like Theordric already said, they have quite the long life thus losing someone hurts even more. We also cant forget that the dragons and humans made peace with each other and yet it was the humans that betrayed the dragon. I would see him different if the dragons did the first step but even Nidhogg, who never trusted the humans did not attack until they were betrayed by having their sister killed.

Also I am not sure that he knew that Nidhogg would keep this war going for so long. He may have thought that his brother will simply kill them all and be done with it (which is not really the right way but its understandable). He might not have foreseen that this would go over so long thus maybe over the time he came to the realization that he made a grave mistake. Yet still being sad over his sisters death and at the same time maybe even feeling guilty for giving his brother his eye he could have gone in a even deeper depression thus rendering him into doing nothing at all.

In the end I find both dragons to be quite tragic even if their actions, especially Nidhoggs are not morally correct.

The only dragon that I would really like to have a word with is their Father..he is really not the best father in the world. His direct children are killed of, consumed by grief or rage and he does nothing. Yes he is the keeper of the lake but really I cant accept that he would not have found some way to talk to them. I mean he could create a mini-dragon out of his corpse.

[BillyKaplan]

snip.

I'd add that if Hraesvelgr did anything, he'd lose Nidhogg, who for all his actions was still his brother. It's not until we showed him that humans had potential that he decided keeping family wasn't worth it.

As for Midgardsormr, I'm not sure how all knowing he is. Even if he were, not only would he be too late to act, but he chose to join in the chorus when you talk to him at the end of the dungeon. Why should he do anything but support Nidhogg's revenge against those who killed his children? All he ever promised was that he wouldn't directly hurt you.

[Confidence_Trick]

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

[Belhi]

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

Still wasn't his responsibility to save them. He was burned out on mortals at that point. He had put his trust in them and they had betrayed the dragons. Again. Just to give context, Ratatoskr was probably the most pro human of the dragons trusting them more than probably even Hraesvelgr. He just wanted nothing to do with them.

[LystAP]

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

A dragon's sense of time is dramatically different from a man's. They hibernate for a time, the time they spend active could be short, they probably don't bother to keep track of time (which is understandable, they don't got clocks); there is also the fact that near-immortal beings, such as dragons, value things differently than mortals.

And at the point of Heavensward, it's just an excuse for both sides; Nidhogg has his thing, but many of his underlings were born and died in the war, losing loved ones (also including the heretics, whom were oppressed by Ishgard for one reason or another), and some still do, although at a reduced enough rate that Ishgard can bother to focus on other things. They probably held up the betrayal of Ratasoktr in the same way Thordan and his church did, a self-righteous goal truly fueled by a cycle of vengeance between the two sides; note that until recently, just talking or being 'friendly' with a dragon meant you got thrown over a cliff. And I presume Nidhogg's brood didn't mind ripping up dragons who would openly disagree with the war.

[MistakeNot]

So I was on twitter and I came across someone talking about how great this dragon is. A debate ensued and they continually tried to justify him giving his eye to Nidhogg. I'm honestly baffled and to be frank, really frustrated by this.

In my eyes Hraesvelgr is evil. I need an argument other than "nobody's perfect" that exonerates him from the following

1. Giving Nidhogg his eye
2. Concealing the truth from his kin and the warrior of light
3. doing nothing as Nidhogg caused endless suffering
4. only stepping in 'after' his father reprimanded him

In what what way was giving Nidhogg his eye wrong?
He did it to save his brother who had just been grievously wounded by the same traitors and murderers who had killed his sister.

Concealing what truth? His kin probably did know what had happened in the past, and he had no obligation to volunteer any information to the WoL.

Why should he have done anything? He was also quite righteously pissed off at the Ishgardians for killing Ratatoskr and never even acknowledging that they did anything wrong. The only way he could have stopped Nidhogg was by fighting and killing Nidhogg, and he certainly did not want to kill his own brother.

It was not so much a reprimand as a reminder that by that time Nidhogg was actually already dead. What remained was just a shade formed from his rage.

[LineageRazor]

Evil is definitely too strong a word to use. As others have said, flawed is a much better choice. Hraes made some bad decisions, and turned a blind eye to the consequences. Irresponsible, yes. Evil, no.

The guy was already reeling from the death of his lover when a group of humans slaughtered his sister. His brother comes crawling blind asking for aid in getting vengeance on her murderers, it's not unreasonable to expect that he'd help him out.

The irresponsible part comes in letting Nidhogg ride roughshod over Ishgard for another thousand years after all those murderers are already dead - but then the choice basically boils down to choosing between the welfare of a bunch of strangers he doesn't care about and the welfare of his misguided brother. I doubt there are many human beings who would be eager to kill a sibling to protect a bunch of strangers, even if it would be justified to do so.

Getting Hraesvalgr to acknowledge, both to the WoL and to himself, that his idleness was the wrong thing to do, is a fantastic bit of character development, and lead to the dragon being one of the most interestingly nuanced characters in the expansion.

[OcieKo]

Keep in mind a thousand years to them is probably more like 10 to mortals. Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg, Ratatoskr, Bahamut, and Tiamat are all siblings of the same clutch. Tiamat was imprisoned in the allaghan era, as was bahamut killed and his soul imprisoned and revived them. And the allaghans have been dead long before the ishgardians were even a people. Its quite possible they knew Sophia/Zurvan/Sephirot and their peoples before the Allags cane to them. Its very possible they are way over 10k years old. Midgard regards Hydaelyn almost like a sister or a friend, as hes probably the oldest entity around short of her. And hes not even originally from Hydaelyn either. Also, the Ishgardians have been lying to and assassinating their own people just to perpetuate the war they started to gain power cheaply with beings far beyond them in power.

Also Isgardian royalty are the originators of the Heretics by right, and by modern standard all native ishgardians are heretics as well. This is mentioned in that the reason for the murder of Ratatoskr, was to eat her and gain her power, with the most dense concentration being her eyes.

[thegreatonemal]

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

You act like ishgard said sorry or anything they buried the past and hide it for 1000 years for the dragons this did really happen yesterday most were alive when it happened. and for all of nidhogg's hatred of man he only picked on ishgard never once messing with any other group of people. He should of just killed them all at the time or maybe 50 years later enough to sleep off his wounds and he'd of been completely in the right.

[Vexander]

1. Giving Nidhogg his eye.
Nidhogg was dying, and aside from the fact Hraes would be facing the loss of a Brood Brother on top of recently losing a Brood Sister, there's also the fact he probably felt some guilt and responsibility for his stance on advocating cohabitation with mortals. I'd say this was a case of Nidhogg taking advantage of Hraes's grief.

2. Concealing the truth from his kin and the warrior of light.
I don't feel like this was concealed at all though. When the Warrior of Light first met him, Hraes shared with him the vision of the past. All of his children were quite aware as well, all dragons were.

3. Doing nothing as Nidhogg caused endless suffering.
What was he supposed to do? Nidhogg's children are Nidhogg's responsibility and he has no right to tell them not to throw away their lives for revenge. Was he supposed to have his own go to the defense of those who killed his sister? Those who had killed her to steal her eyes for power? It'd have been wrong to trust them.

4. Only stepping in 'after' his father reprimanded him.
I don't think Midgardsormr reprimanded Hraes so much as, gave him permission to do as he felt was right. The actions of Ishgard to make amends for the transgressions of their forefathers, their resolve, their desire for peace, seemed to do as much to move Hraes to take action most unconscionable for dragonkind; to turn on his own. Its not just that either. For two wyrms of the first brood to engage in war against one another would be a massive, ground-shaking thing for dragons. I think for Hraes he was able to justify it at last because Nidhogg was no longer truly Nidhogg. He had become something malignant and twisted that would do more harm to all, dragon and man alike, like a primal.