A Big Problem with the New Summoner.

[Fatalyze]

No, this isn't a thread to complain about the missing AoE damage, the Bane nerf, the Ruin 3 nerf, or the RNG mechanics for Ruin 4 (Though I will touch on that later.) One very big issue I've been mulling over since the info came out is the utter simplicity of the GCD rotation. With the removal of Shadow Flare as a GCD, the removal of one of our DoTs, the removal of Miasma 2 completely, and the removal of Blizzard 2 as a cross-class ability, we just don't have any variety in our GCD rotation at all.

Given we can now open with Tri-Disaster, and use it again upon entering DWT, we can go 30+ seconds into a fight without needing to hardcast our DoTs. What does this mean for our GCD rotation? Ruin. Our opener is most likely going to be peppered with Ruin 2 so we can weave our oGCDS, and in DWT we use Ruin 3. But what happens after that? We spam Ruin 1 for until we hardcast our two DoTs, then back to Ruin 1 spam. Without Shadowflare to keep up, and without staggered DoT timers (the old 30+24+18 as opposed to the new 30+30) our filler becomes monotonous. To make matters worse, Ruin 4 will replace our Ruin1 or Ruin3 buttons respectively, so while we're spamming, we don't even need to react to the procs or change our input.

As it stands we only need to hardcast our DoTs every minute. meaning we cast Ruin in one form or another for ~55 whole seconds. Ruin 1 for filler, Ruin 2 for oGCDs/movement, and Ruin 3 while in DWT. Even when Demi-Bahamut is out, we simply spam Ruin. I understand the desire to increase the skill floor for beginner/intermediate players, but this is a bit overkill in terms of simplicity. Compare it to Black Mage, who has to balance refreshing their timer with Blizz/Fire 1, nuking with 4, and swapping forms with 3, as well as reacting to Thundercloud and Firestarter procs, while weaving in their own forms of cooldowns, and then Red Mage, who has a melee-like priorty system/rotation that has them balancing not one, but two gauges, making decisions on which rotation path to make, and then going in for a DPS burst akin to DWT, only in melee attack form. Not even SMN's oGCDs make up for the complexity. We have a few abilities we use on cooldown every minute, and then we use our Aetherflow abilities 3 times per minute wherever we please, because we no longer have to worry about a timer associated with Aethertrail.

Here are some thoughts on remedying this problem:

- First and foremost, if the tooltips are correct and Ruin 1 is 80 potency, and Ruin 2 is 100 potency, then the rotation instantly becomes much less monotonous. The reason being, is that at those potencies, Ruin2 becomes more MP efficient than Ruin3 to use outside of Trance for increased DPS. If we are able to spam Ruin 2 throughout a fight, it means we get much more mobility, but more importantly, it means we have to react to our Ruin4 procs. If these tooltips are correct, then this would be the current SMN rotation and my complaints would be invalid. However, there are concerns about the videos we've seen, and it seems like Ruin1 and Ruin2 are both doing very similar damage, and on top of many other tooltip errors, we can't be certain these tooltips are correct.

- This one is a bit drastic, so I'm not getting my hopes up. But if all timers were halved, our rotation would instantly become much more engaging. Aetherflow on a 30 second timer so we could DWT every 30 seconds, meaning we summon Bahamut every minute (And much better match the burst phases of other DPS) Our DoTs could last only 15 seconds, meaning we'd more actively hardcast them. Of course, if it were this way, everything would need pretty hard nerfs to make up for the massive increase in burst damage. But I'd definitely be okay with it just for the more engaging gameplay.

- Last but not least, and the one I am praying for, is more pet interactivity. People say that the DoT changes are good because it means SMN is moving away from a DoT class and moving towards a pet management class. However, in losing complex DoT management, we didn't gain any special pet management. Our pet abilities still have the same cooldowns (aside from Enkindle, but that will still average a ~2 minute recast with the Further Ruin mechanic.) What would make SMN much more engaging is if pets had much shorter cooldowns on their abilities. Going from things like 90 second Shockwaves (this move would probably need to be reworked) and 30 second Aerial Slashes, down to 10 or so seconds each. They could even share a recast timer of 5 or so seconds, but then you'd have to choose between a stronger single-target attack or a weaker AoE attack. The player would have something to do during their Ruin spam (these abilities act like oGCDs for your pet, so they are a slight DPS gain, as well as increased Ruin4 proc chance), and give the Pet much more meaning than what it feels like right now. Of course, this comes with its own set of issues. Pet AI is somewhat finicky, and I'm already upset that Contagion needs to be used in a much stricter time window that it used to. Relying on your pet to listen to your commands immediately to maximize DPS would be a little bit of an issue. On top of that, one could simply put the pet on Sic (don't do that) and it would remove a good chunk of all of this interactivity. EDIT: This option would also best retrofit pre-Heavensward SMN.

So, this ends my rant suggestions to my issues. If anyone has similar gripes, I'd love to share the pain, and if anyone has any other ideas for potential fixes, I'd love to hear them!

[Silverquick]

No, this isn't a thread to complain about the missing AoE damage, the Bane nerf, the Ruin 3 nerf, or the RNG mechanics for Ruin 4 (Though I will touch on that later.) One very big issue I've been mulling over since the info came out is the utter simplicity of the GCD rotation. With the removal of Shadow Flare as a GCD, the removal of one of our DoTs, the removal of Miasma 2 completely, and the removal of Blizzard 2 as a cross-class ability, we just don't have any variety in our GCD rotation at all!

Heh... not to make light of your intended post, because that too is valid...

But I'd say after the revelations and all the mega nerfs... we have a lot more than just ONE big problem hehe.

We've got a ton of them

[Semmi]

The Ruin tooltip is incorrect and I explained why here. Everything is subject to change of course, but I would trust how a skill is working over how the tooltip says it should function, as tooltips tend to be done after the changes to the skill are made, and it wouldn't be surprising to see the tooltips lagging behind by a few dev builds.

[Dyvid]

So after looking at it the basic fight will look like this:
Miasma and Bio -> Fester -> Ruin Ruin Ruin -> Fester -> Ruin Ruin Ruin -> Fester -> DWT -> Tri-D -> Ruin Spam -> Death Flare -> AF -> {Repeat Rotation} -> Miasma and Bio -> Bahamut. Add Shadow Flare somewhere into the mix.

Now Pets may or may not be tricky depending on how you play it. You could just summon Garuda and keep her on Sic the whole time. Or you could try swapping Ifrit and Garuda back and forth for maximum debuff (Radiant Shields and Contagion*) but this will create a challenge because of how Egi skills are designed. All Egi's share the same ability slots, 3 4. Radiant Shield is on 3 and Contagion* is on 4. So if on Sic, Garuda's will automatically use Aerial Slash (Slot 3) and put it on a cooldown. If you summon Ifrit at this time Radiant Shield will be on a 30s cooldown because Garuda used Slot 3's ability. Ideally you would summon each every 30s to keep the debuffs up.

In other words you'll have to keep both pets on Obey and manually use abilities while keeping the timers in mind. Whether this is actually workable or just a dps lose I can't say until actually used.

[Semmi]

It will likely work out to be a DPS loss, but I'm not an expert on pet mechanics and don't know all of the quirks they have in detail. Even if it were a gain, it wouldn't be sustainable given the MP costs.

[ShaolinMike]

So after looking at it the basic fight will look like this:
Miasma and Bio -> Fester -> Ruin Ruin Ruin -> Fester -> Ruin Ruin Ruin -> Fester -> DWT -> Tri-D -> Ruin Spam -> Death Flare -> AF -> {Repeat Rotation} -> Miasma and Bio -> Bahamut. Add Shadow Flare somewhere into the mix.

You can open with Ruin II (Tri-Disaster) since the cooldown gets reset when you enter DWT. Might also need to replace 1 or 2 Festers with Painflares to get into DWT quicker and synergize with other party member buffs in their opener. But yeah this appears to be the basic idea.

[Dyvid]

Yea, what i'm thinking. Looks good on paper but needs changes to make it viable.

[Silverquick]

the removal of Miasma 2 completely, and the removal of Blizzard 2 as a cross-class ability, we just don't have any variety in our GCD rotation at all.

Thats the one that really stings prior to level 60...
Up through level 59... it was our version of the BLM Fire II...

We would use Bio, Miasma, Bio 2... for 110 Potency BANE'd out in a DoT. Which Ticks once every 3 seconds.

Bliz 2 is a 2 second casting time and only 50 potency... but when you spam it on top of the DoTs... it equates out to approximately 75 potency over 3 seconds.

So the BANE DoTs + Bliz 2 were doing about 185 Potency in an AoE...

The BLM Fire II was doing 100 potency + 3 Fire stacks for 180 Potency AoE.

With the removal of Bliz 2... and the super nerf to Bane... it literally wrecks OUR version of the Blm's Fire II.

When they get FLARE at level 50 they get way ahead of us, and we can't compete... until level 52 and we get PAINFLARE... then our AoE damage between the two Magical DPS classes of BLM and SMN equalizes out when we stack Shadowflare on top of it.

The BLM Rotation will be Fire II>Fire II>Fire II>Fire II>FLARE>Transpose>Bliz3> then restart the cycle.

We don't become a Master of AoE until about 60th level when we get Deathflare. But they of course get Enochain which is like continuous Deathflares but single target so the two jobs split into specialties at that point.

But all that is out the window now... We got the Super Nerf... they didn't.

[Dyvid]

You can open with Ruin II (Tri-Disaster) since the cooldown gets reset when you enter DWT. Might also need to replace 1 or 2 Festers with Painflares to get into DWT quicker and synergize with other party member buffs in their opener. But yeah this appears to be the basic idea.

Well I was just giving a basic flow of the fight not opener, which is one hard cast DoT round, one Tri-D, and ruin spamming.

I'm thinking Shadow Flare + Tri-D for opener then Fester > Pain > Fester to get into DWT or you could do an around the clock, Energy Drain > Fester > Pain > DWT which would be the quickest but comes with minor dps lose. Might want to use Aetherpact (Devotion) at the start as well for the parties openers.

[Psycofang]

The BLM Rotation will be Fire II>Fire II>Fire II>Fire II>FLARE>Transpose>Bliz3> then restart the cycle.

We don't become a Master of AoE until about 60th level when we get Deathflare. But they of course get Enochain which is like continuous Deathflares but single target so the two jobs split into specialties at that point.

But all that is out the window now... We got the Super Nerf... they didn't.

Its f3 - f3x 3 - flare but keep in mind in SB blm took a 20% potency nerf to fire 2, 20 potency was knocked off of fire 4/blizzard 4 which for fire 4 lowers it to 481 per cast.

Flare and Foup still have fall off and blm lost raging strikes so it further hurts us. Your single target went upwards, you get a 3 damage boost abilities, DR for the raid, 3 extra GCDs thanks to tri being reset for agressive play and Shadow flare being instant cast.

You also get 2 enkindles per bahamut which are 685 potency each, painflare isnt nerfed etc