Is it just me or are people overreacting to WHM too soon?

[Gemina]

But then again, maybe I shouldn't agree with you. 4.0 WHM is actually looking very good on the DPS front. SCH AoE DPS was heavily nerfed, WHM AOE significantly buffed... and that stone 4 potency is huge...

It looks VERY good. So good that I wonder if it can compensate for their lack of utility. And it would also seem they have addressed WHMs MP problems in a very big way. We will just have to wait and see what player's parsers pull up. But I have a hunch that once these numbers come up...

Playtesters of the new dungeons don't agree, and said they were easy to heal. And data shows that durations were not nerfed (Aspected Benefic was buffed both in terms of raw potency and from the new stance buffs).

If you saw what I saw, you saw them go up against some dungeon trash, pre-level 70, and that is it. No bosses, hunts, trials, etc. It is not enough for us or them to go off of, and they should have been the first voice to say that along with reiterating that changes can and still will be made up until SBs release. New expansions never arrive with a polished finish. Things are typically a mess at the start. Not only do we have to wait for 4.0, but we also have to wait for future adjustments.

[Aetherstar]

I don't think people are necessarily overreacting. The strong feeling of disappointment of the supposedly new-and-improved 4.0 WHM when compared to the other 2 4.0 healers is a valid feeling to have. It's not wrong to want more or expect better. Especially when people were hoping that -this- would be the time for a change for the better.

While the positive thinking is truly admirable at a time like this, we can't really ignore how the new gauges and mechanics for the other 2 healers are designed in a way that they'll be gained and used naturally as the other 2 healers have always functioned. Whereas for WHMs in 4.0, all players have to cling on is the slightest possibility that maybe the 4.0 dungeons and raids will cater more to cure spam. Which we all know, in ARR & HW -- We've all gotten used to that sort of method as being inefficient.

So its okay to react so passionately about it, negative or otherwise.

[Brill_]

Problem is people are taking the meta as gospel and think it is the only way to do things.
1. Is WHM viable for savage? Yes(well, I hope so, if they are not, then SE really messed up)
2. Is WHM efficient for savage? That answer appears to be no.

Just because it's not part of the most efficient party make up does not mean WHM can't succeed at savage. Reality is, there are 3 healers, since you only need 2 for a raid, one of the healers will always be the odd jobs out. Effecient and viable are separate things. People think the most efficient party setup is the ONLY setup that will work, that's just not the case.

[SaitoHikari]

the machinist want to talk with you about them ammo thing.... them whole combo mechanic is based on rng...

the AST want to have a word with you with royal road buff that get consumed at the next use... forcing you to think a bit before use your card.

if the white mage can heal stronger than other (what it can already, you know?)it means he can dps more before heal... then assist in dps... or in raid allows the second healer (generally ast or sch) to dps more. assist is not only about give a buff, but allows other to do more...

from what i have seen soo far, you have little to no knowledge about how the game work for the other jobs... they want make people focus on using mono heal instead to play the easy road of aoe heal... because maybe the monster in Stormblood will hit far harder and will recquire more solo heal than aoe heal.. in the video about the dungeon a sam did get a 19k damage from an aoe of a trash... it's insane... and it's only level 63... i think people really need to stop to over react and wait to test the actual change on the long terms... and stop with meta is absolute... yoshida have make sure is possible to do every content with any composition... if your group only want to rely on the best of the best... they aren't really facing the challenge... they are taking the easy way out by playing the best in the slot composition.

- Point 1: MCH's reliance on RNG appears to be reduced, and even then, their main issue was less about the RNG (they had cooldowns specifically designed to bypass the RNG, which WHM doesn't get in their new system), and more about how burst/opener-heavy their damage is. If there's one common theme among all of the SB changes, it would appear the devs want to kill the concept of openers entirely, or at least redistribute damage potential throughout an entire fight instead of having raid groups heavily emphasize 20 second burst damage windows at the start of a fight and repeating it again 2-3 minutes later or after a phase change.

AST started out as being -the- RNG class. Everyone reading this thread should already know by now how much they changed throughout HW to drastically reduce the impact of bad RNG on their end, unless everyone here suddenly has the memory of a goldfish when it's convenient for one's argument. And even then, the act of drawing a card is guaranteed, the RNG is based on WHICH card you get. WHMs have no guaranteed ways to generate lilies, and all of their lilies are spent on their two new key skills and a few older ones.

Both of these are nowhere near what WHM is facing now. Why the hell are there even people here thinking that WHM being subject to even worse RNG with far less depth in their system overall is fine? Tell us to wait and see what happens all you want, but know that development is not instant. The devs have drilled it into your heads that these things take time. There are only two weeks remaining until SB Early Access starts. This late into development, the only changes we can potentially see will be numerical, rather than based on utility, unless some miracle happens - and given the track record thus far, it may still not be enough. So at the very least, WHMs will have to start out in SB being fairly gimped, until about 2-3 patches in before things finally settle down.

- Point 2: WHM, on paper, has the strongest heals in the game. But their issue is something else entirely: They have little to no damage mitigation compared to the other healers. Surely all of you have been in enough Dun Scaith runs by now to note what happens in struggling alliances that have parties with double WHM as opposed to parties that have at least one SCH and AST in their party. All the healing strength in the world doesn't matter if half your party members have no chance of surviving an ultimate due to having vulnerability stacks/are weakened from having died beforehand, and you have no mitigation to make up for the difference (unless the tank is aware enough to risk using tank LB, which I will definitely commend them for since they're thinking outside of the box and have the party's best interests at heart, even with the knowledge that it may result in them being chewed out by DPS that don't know any better). And this isn't freaking Savage, this is a standard 24-man raid that you have zero control over in terms of party compositions of all three parties unless you queue in as a full 24-man premade (in which case, I would say they're trying too hard, but more power to you if you can actually get 24 people together through PF). From a design standpoint, this is problematic, not just for the viability of WHMs in general, but exactly how the developers should tune their fights moving forward.

WHM finally gained some unique mitigation, but what did AST and SCH receive in response? Their healing strength predictably went up, and they gained greater party utility in response. In some fights, the best defense is a good offense.

- Point 3: Maybe before you try calling out my knowledge, maybe you should pay attention to what's happening to everyone besides yourself, and WHY these things are happening. People like to frame this as being some elitist meta VS casual thing, but I see this from a standpoint of balancing class design with content design. You're telling me that, and this is a direct quote from you, "maybe the monster in Stormblood will hit far harder and will recquire more solo heal than aoe heal". That goes into another point: Has everyone already forgotten what issues AST had at the very beginning of HW? AST was perceived as a job that struggled in 4-man content because their healing potency was too low. Then they continuously received buffs after enough of the (smaller) AST community slammed the devs over it.

Are you telling me that you think the devs are going to repeat that mistake with AST and SCH again, because they're going to design enemy attack strength around WHM raw healing power? Judging by your post count and forum join date, you've played this game longer than I have. And you should know better by now. And once again: You don't even have WHM and AST maxed out, the very subjects of this thread.

With that, let's go back to the original point of this thread: The Lily mechanic is bad, it's contradictory, and it actively punishes certain playing styles by funneling emphasis into Cure I/II, when chances are you'll be more effective by outright ignoring the lily mechanic. You know, the very thing the devs are trying to avoid.

[Ayer2015]

I played AST from day one and it was perfectly capable of healing roulette content before all the buffs. People whined and AST got crazy buffs. Now here we are....

[Yallaid]

Problem is people are taking the meta as gospel and think it is the only way to do things.
1. Is WHM viable for savage? Yes(well, I hope so, if they are not, then SE really messed up)
2. Is WHM efficient for savage? That answer appears to be no.

Just because it's not part of the most efficient party make up does not mean WHM can't succeed at savage. Reality is, there are 3 healers, since you only need 2 for a raid, one of the healers will always be the odd jobs out. Effecient and viable are separate things. People think the most efficient party setup is the ONLY setup that will work, that's just not the case.

i don't care about that at all, i do not raid.

i do however like to play my class well. The 4.0 WHM changes introduce a catch-22 to playing the job well that is present in ALL KINDS OF CONTENT. The problems with these skills will be present at all time and in all content once you get access to lily procs.

This is not a problem that is limited to Raid Meta or some other context that people can safely ignore because they don't think it affects them. These are problem that every single player who enjoys WHM will have to deal with, regardless of their playstyle and preferred content.

[Shurrikhan]

Because the devs are not going to read any of these threads anyway. You are complaining to a wall.

Which is the only action I can take short of complaining with my wallet. As I would rather pay to play something I enjoy than be without either game or payment, the attempt at least seems worthwhile to me.

But hey, if you'd like to call out futility by default, feel free. The experience and player population may diminish, but complacency can then go uncontested.

[OzumaKuma]

Its not like we have not been given unspecific details. The media tour gave a lot and what we saw for WHM does not look good at the start of the coming expansion. So people are damn right to complain if they feel the product they are getting is faulty.

[Belhi]

People seem to be mistaking the issue people have for a viability one.

There are two issues:

1. The new WHM mechanic is poorly designed. It is dependent on high heals and even then leaves the WHM with no real control over the use of the Lily resource unless they actively DONT use CDs, which kind of defeats the purpose of a mechanic that reduces the cooldown on CDs. The RNG also makes it very difficult to predict when you will get resource and it is almost completely useless any time your not constantly healing. It also will now be the resource everyone is waiting to be prebuilt before a pull. Frankly the whole Lily interface is pretty useless as it isn't really a resource WHM's will be managing.

This issue really has nothing to do with the other healers. Its just a messy design and doesn't have any gameplay value at all.

2. WHM is viable and will continue to be so for healing, mainly due to what it already has rather than anything new it is getting. The reason it is a problem is that AST is just better for party gameplay. AST is very competitive with WHM in healing, particularly with additions like Earthly Star and the Lady card, but it also brings a lot to the table in the way of substancial buffs. In addition WHM dps isn't that far above it. Gravity hits for the same damage as Holy and can be cast at a range. Only Aero 3 gives WHM an edge on that front. In single target the extra dot and higher damage of Stone 4 will make a difference but it will also be somewhat offset by Lord cards which are off GCD and hit for around 300 pot currently. WHM dps isn't going to be high enough to offset the benefits of ASTs cards unless WHM gets a huge dps buff. Beyond that AST just brings more heal utility. It has better mitigation, and higher mobility. It just brings more.

WHM is the cheap 10k family car. It will get you their but not much else. AST is the 60k geared up luxury car. It has all the benefits of the family car but with all these extras. If you got to pick between the two to drive, why exactly would you pick the 10k car (ignoring any road costs and insurance for those who want to be padantic). AST is just a better car.

[bswpayton]

Problem is people are taking the meta as gospel and think it is the only way to do things.
1. Is WHM viable for savage? Yes(well, I hope so, if they are not, then SE really messed up)
2. Is WHM efficient for savage? That answer appears to be no.

Just because it's not part of the most efficient party make up does not mean WHM can't succeed at savage. Reality is, there are 3 healers, since you only need 2 for a raid, one of the healers will always be the odd jobs out. Effecient and viable are separate things. People think the most efficient party setup is the ONLY setup that will work, that's just not the case.

also have u looked at the tanks they seem to be pretty close in comparison to the healers , nobody is complaining about palidan changes, but yet here we are page after page of complaints on whm