White Mage just might be okay

[javid]

Damn!! These copy/paste threads keep popping up!! And the same ppl keep repeating themselves lool.

Well OP, I love WHM.....but it's as ppl have discovered, whm utilities are strongly depended on cure demanding content. If the content at any time requires little to no dedicated cure sequences ( i'm talking over a span of 1 min if you're not having to cure at least 5-10+ times) WHM utility will be placed on the back burner.

FIRST
your total percentages are wrong.... freecure 15% and lily 20% and confession 20% are all mutually exclusive independent procs.... so you can't add the rates and say you'll get 55% of something happening. None of them impact the rate of the other so you're left with basically at least 15% of the time something will happen (and multiple things can happen too!);

SECOND
Let me explain why your window has to be within 30-60 sec for confession and lily. All your skills that are affected by lilies are on a 60 sec recast. Typically, unless content demands specific utility usage, you'll be sitting on Tetragram and blowing Assize exactly when its up! Again if content doesn't demand sitting on utilities u can blow benison off every 60 sec as well. So basically every 60 sec you'll be attempting to get lilies and crits to reduce the recast on your next cd. Now let's consider what are the rates of success.

Scenario 1

5 cures over span of 60 sec (doesn't have to be consecutive...could be a cure at the top of the minute...and a few in the middle here and there...still 5 gcd = 10-15 sec of gcd solo healing )

both confessions and lilies proc at 20% rate. So your chances of getting at least 1 proc within 5 attempts (remember they're mutually exclusive independent procs) is 67%!!

67! is pretty high actually; however... in the case that you proc a lil; that's only gonna reduce your next cd by 2 sec (2.4 sec if SE removes factional time from your cd).

In the case that you proc a Confession, you'll have 30 sec from when it appeared to use PI and consume it. NOW this 1 confession proc has waaaaay more utility than 1 lily proc!

But we dont like the measly 4% for one lily; we want 2 lilies minimum (10% reduction)!! Well the chances of getting at least 2 procs within 5 attempts is.... 26% (hmmm...we can't really do anything with 26%.... )

LASTLY for now...

Benison having a longer recast time than DRK's shield; is something noticeable!! However DRK doesn't replenish 50 gauge in 15 sec....unless Drk is hitting multiple targets with Salt of the Earth! Also DRK can use their gauge for dps...so why would they even utilize the shield unless the mitigation was mandated due to content. And if the shield is mandated on a tank then 60 sec recast Benison at 15% max hp is better than 10sec recast DRK cover which takes away from your dps potential.


P.S
I think when the game releases they'll have the lil reduction rates raised. Or they'll raise the lil proc rates; or they'll include more skill that can proc a lil.

Consider this scenario.

Scenario 2

Imagine a sequence that mandated a full 60 sec of dedicated cures (fausts at progression lvl gear pretty much acomplished this; but remember faust fights lasted 2min max). Next we'll imagine a sequence that requires 30 sec of dedicated cures.

the chances of getting at least 2 lilies in 60 sec (assuming a fast gcd of 2.0 sec) is 98.9%!!! and the chances of getting 3 in the same time frame is 95.6%!!! however keep in mind that you just cast 30 f*#king cures....................... this is some faust exclusive shit going on here.... but you're extremely likely to get 2+ lilies which means the 1 cd you use next will have 10-20% reduction (6-12 sec). In this same scenario we can imagine your crit rate is at least 10% which means in 30 cast you're likely to get 3 crits--each of which will reduce all your cds by 5 sec....we're unsure if the reduction stacks "does 3 crits = 15 sec reduction? or once you get one crit you only get the 5 sec reduction and can't accumulate anymore reduction until the CD is reused? So in the worst case that crits don't stack 5 sec flat reductions, you have a high chance of getting 11-17 sec off your next CD?!!!

Scenario 3

Imagine now a 30 sec curing window with the same 2.0 sec gcd. 30 sec is still a very long time to have to be mandated to be casting cures, but we can spread those 15 gcds over the span of 1 min and still gain the same effects! The chance of getting at least 2 lilies in a spam of 15 gcds is 83%!! and the chance of getting at least 3 is 60%!!

The point I'm trying to get you to see is how heavily dependent this WHM system is on solo gcd healing.... you need spend 15-30 gcds within a 60 sec window to reliably get 60%+ chances of reducing your next cd by 10-20% (18-28% reduction if you assume a crit proc)!! Again if they make CONTENT that forces all the healer compositions to manage a 15-30 dedicated healing sequence within a 60 sec window, WHM WILL WIN, SINCE NOBODY WILL DO IT BETTER!!!

[DreamWeaver]

I mean...were you here at 3.0?
The amount of whining and B-ing by the AST community is similar, and look what it got them.
So...monkey see monkey do I guess (with the slight improvement of whining 2 weeks before launch, maybe we'll get the changes at 4.0 instead of 4.07).

[Risvertasashi]

I mean...were you here at 3.0?
The amount of whining and B-ing by the AST community is similar, and look what it got them.
So...monkey see monkey do I guess (with the slight improvement of whining 2 weeks before launch, maybe we'll get the changes at 4.0 instead of 4.07).

As I just commented on the previous page, the situations are pretty parallel. I was there calling for buffs to AST so it could be competitive, and plenty of people were saying oh it's fine, oh you just need to learn to play it, and so on.

WHM is right on track to follow in those footsteps. I really do hope the early warning means SE might do something about it. But I also know a bunch of people won't believe us until we're standing at ground zero (and even then, there will be an "oh stop whining" crowd).

[RhettSerris]

The fact that you have to think twice before stating whether WHM got nerfed or buffed is in itself ridiculous.
WHM has already been lagging behind ever since(even before in the hands of good players) the stupid Balance buff, and we expected SB to even out the balance. But now? Instead of us discussing how much we're buffed, we're actually discussing "are we nerfed or are we buffed", this speak volumes of the imbalance in the healer circle so far.

I actually thought about it more like thrice because I like to be precise since that's nice but more on topic you're correct. In an ideal world this thread would be more of a discussion about "Oh man WHM's lookin' great across the board now HYPE TRAIN!" It's unfortunate it can't be as such.

The damage potential of a dedicated DPS getting a 10-20% buff will demolish anything a White Mage can do relatively to its healer counterparts. None of this even factors in the added layer of crit buffs half the jobs now have.

Oh right...direct hit completely slipped my mind...

Call us pessimistic if you like, but I really do not want to wait months, or potentially even years, for the job to be in a good spot.

Honestly? I wouldn't dare. As I said originally, I haven't done anything savage-wise with WHM since Gordias was current content. My views may be outdated, my math may probably is wrong. If anything I'm probably overly optimistic in the face of more realistic viewpoints, call it a character flaw.

I mean...were you here at 3.0?
The amount of whining and B-ing by the AST community is similar, and look what it got them.
So...monkey see monkey do I guess

(B-ing made me laugh so thanks for that!)
In retrospect it did help, it just seems so dramatic. Though maybe that's just me being too sensitive about it.

Anyway! I think I've successfully brought up the points I wanted to use as basis for a discussion and gotten a much better idea of where the opposing view is coming from. Thank you very much to everyone who brought up counterpoints to my ideas, it's given me a lot of food for thought. As a whole, even from the start it's been clear that everyone in this thread wants what they feel is best for the job's longevity in the long run, we're just approaching the subject from different angles. I hope you all will continue to pursue what you feel is the most expedient path to a better White Mage. I'll probably bow out of the discussion at this point but, again, thank you everyone for your time.

[fantasticm]

As I just commented on the previous page, the situations are pretty parallel.

I hope you're right. The difference in the two situations is that AST had a solid starting toolkit that was easily rectified with potency buffs and other minor adjustments, WHM on the other hand... has a new toolkit that is incredibly ineffective if not outright useless. If SE wants to make WHM viable again they're going to need to put in a bit more work into making it good, or just scrap it and start over, and only one of those things might happen. Hahaha, I'm sorry I'm so negative. I love WHM. I want to believe.

[Reiryuu]

I hope you're right. The difference in the two situations is that AST had a solid starting toolkit that was easily rectified with potency buffs and other minor adjustments, WHM on the other hand... has a new toolkit that is incredibly ineffective if not outright useless. If SE wants to make WHM viable again they're going to need to put in a bit more work into making it good, or just scrap it and start over, and only one of those things might happen. Hahaha, I'm sorry I'm so negative. I love WHM. I want to believe.

People,myself included, wouldn't be so angry over the WHM changes if they didn't love the job. We just need to be strong and give our job a little bit of the hard love type so that it can actually grow and succeed and if that means not playing it or leveling it till SE makes these changes, so be it.

[javid]

You can say whatever you want , you can analyze the healing spells as much as you want , the fact is THERE IS NO CONTENT where a particular healer will be needed SO since the astro is almost a Whm what you get is the buff from the cards that every1 benefit . Thats the point , yoshida wants to make the Whm a pure healer? Pld a pure tank ? WHERE IS THE CONTENT FOR THEM LOL the savage is ridicolous so are the primals ex

Here we go again............................................. How is it you know this??? And if you're referring back to prophecy what is ahead, you neglected to consider Coils bk in ARR, and gordias here in Heavenward both were content that required heavy healing sequences. And all of the savage content had the mini boss faust which required dedicated heavy gcd solo healing..............................but somehow you KNOW what's in store..lulz

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I mean...were you here at 3.0?
The amount of whining and B-ing by the AST community is similar, and look what it got them.
So...monkey see monkey do I guess (with the slight improvement of whining 2 weeks before launch, maybe we'll get the changes at 4.0 instead of 4.07).

There is a difference though. ASTs problem was easily fixable though number buffs.
WHM has a problem with the way the entire lily system works. Even if they up the proc rate for these things, it's just not enough to have it only work off of Cure I and II. Above that, the rewards for gathering these procs that are hard behind multiple RNG gates? More heals... It's so BORING and uninspired. It's a shame such an iconic job was ruined because they had no idea what to do with them.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Here we go again............................................. How is it you know this??? And if you're referring back to prophecy what is ahead, you neglected to consider Coils bk in ARR, and gordias here in Heavenward both were content that required heavy healing sequences. And all of the savage content had the mini boss faust which required dedicated heavy gcd solo healing..............................but somehow you KNOW what's in store..lulz

Even if SB somehow does have content that is so damage heavy it requires Cure/II spam (which btw is silly because most heavy raid damage is AOE, any single target attacks only need 1 to 2 single targetted heals to handle this has been true from ARR to HW, it's not changing now), AST can still heal that damage just as well. It doesn't need any of the WHMs new spells, it has everything they have, but readily accessible and not locked behind RNG.

[javid]

snip.

uuuugh that's not true at all that only 1 to 2 cures were needed. All of coil except for turn 3 has several several sequences that required consistent cure spamming: from the snake bosses in T1 to most of all of T4, especially T5 (extremely so the case of cure spamming during snakes, even with dual tanking method); second coil not so much.... but final coil back to spamming sequences!! Into heavenward each of the fausts DEMANDED spamming. A1S prey targets during progression required more than just 2 cure II; it was more like pre shield + 3 to 4 cures. A2 another spamming sequence, over 6 successive gcd healing needed on the second to last wave (a few of the waves actually). I don't know A3S or A4S personally but I can assume they both had their fair share of spam over 2 cures. Midas progression raid was full of spamming. It's only when you come to Creator that you don't see the spam that was necessary in previous raid content; except in A12s tankbusters.

Now to how a WHM compares to AST.... (to be continue)