#DeleteSmn aka "Here's where you can shove your Bahamut" thread

[Leigaon]

I don't think SMN will suck, I just think it will be boring to play after these changes. The rotation seems real simple compared to what it is now...

It does seem a little lacking, but this is what they complained about so much so they took it into consideration. We have the vocal minority to thank for that.

To the OP: Before we delete summoner..can you delete some of your posts? It's hard to take anyone seriously when they seem hardcore about a job but don't know how to use an edit button. If you can't take the time to learn a bit about posting on the forums...plus not taking the time to go back and consolidate it, says something. About both of us.

We do loose a bit of our potency from the face of it all, so they might need to do some adjusting. I'm not sure about having my DoTs messed with so much but the community made the threads, so off it went.

I don't mind the Enkindle reduction but I think it's coming a little late. A bit more Enkindle spam would be a welcome change in the mid 50's at least.

30% increased pet damage
... Fester's tooltip is wrong. It seems the potency is 400. Twice that of painflare.
... Can freely Tri outside DWT because DWT refreshes it
... No longer have to burn swiftcasts on Shadow Flare since it's now instant.

... If we're feeling generous, we can give up 20% of our MP to somebody else with Mana SHift.

Thank you for revealing some positivity and some things I may have missed while trying to gather up all this information.

So it would seem the trade off for Spur will be a general trait that increases our pets damage?
The tool-tip for fester makes things better on my end, I forgot the DWT does refresh the Tri ability, and that our DoTs are longer (I'm not 100% on potency)

Shadowflare is going to take some getting use to! That's for sure, but knowing I don't have to use it with Swift is nice.

I do like our Mana Shift, I would get raised to help raise other members in some 24 man fights, now I can give myself some MP and the white mage some so they can keep on trucking. On the downside I guess I won't be used to raise anymore.

Now I wonder more about what adjustments were made to the pets, removing cogitation from Garuda is nice but if we lost Sustain I'd rather keep my egi away from melee range AoE. Maybe I missed other adjustments to ones like Titan or Ifrit that are coming. So much to look through. Though with the recent posts I'm not going to count my SMN out. Though Bard is calling be back to my 1.0 days..but how could I live without my lil Titan-McNugget. can't kill that love.

[LunarEmerald]

30% increased pet damage
x2 Ahk Morn every 2 minutes (1360 total potency).
Fester's tooltip is wrong. It seems the potency is 400. Twice that of painflare.
Can freely Tri outside DWT because DWT refreshes it
No longer have to burn swiftcasts on Shadow Flare since it's now instant.

We benefit a lot from the role skills too:

We get one of Black Mage's most useful abilities: Apocatastasis
We get another method of MP recover with Lucid Dream. It will be practically impossible to run out of MP now. Ruin 3 spam for days.
We get a much better way to self-heal with Drain. No longer as squishy.
If we're feeling generous, we can give up 20% of our MP to somebody else with Mana SHift.

[silverlunarfox]

As a SMN/SCH main, I am content with the changes. Everything has to be tweaked to work around new abilities. Stop being such a downer and wait to try it out. I think the tweaks will make sense in the end. I think, as I always have, SMN is underrated in terms of damage. I've used it effectively in raids and the like. you just need to use it smartly, and not alot of SMN do...I know a few personally........

So in the end rejoice we are still getting some love.

[Mature]

.
Theorycrafting is something that some people enjoy

Sadly that's not much the case here, some people are throwing unfunded moronic facts... To the point they argue between them about who's got the "best" theorycrafting..

_------------------

I just wanna know what changes been done to ifrit and titan as it seems garudas contagion is gone (well replaced)

[Anyan]

I just wanna know what changes been done to ifrit and titan as it seems garudas contagion is gone (well replaced)

Yeah, that's something I'm really curios about too. So far nothing it seems. I'd use Fifi a lot more if he had some kind of gap closer and was faster in general. The same kind of goes for Nugget as well. Why are they so slow? O.o That's actually one the very few pet (heh) peeves I've always had with summoner.
Go Titan! Attack!! Yellow nugget makes a uuuurgh sound and then sloooowly floats up to the enemy.
It'd be so good if he hurled a rock at the enemy to grab enmity.
Both old and new contagion seems too good to not use Ruda though.

[Fyce]

1 - Sustain removed: So, unless our pets get another buff to durability our only option is to target it then cast physick (which) means DPS downtime or create a macro which is idiotic to require.

With the change to Shadowflare, you should be able to use Swiftcast way more often for other things... Such as summoning your pet back. But frankly in most situations, either your pet dies or it won't move an inch. Sustain was used very rarely, and it's usually much faster to resummon it.

2 - Enhanced Pet Actions trait removed: so no more speed buff from our pets crits

We get Ruin IV procs instead, which completly crush the little speed buff we had.

3 - Bane: one of our Aetherflow abilities used for AoE damage nerfed heavily. It used to be 100% damage on the first 3 enemies and 50% damage on the 4th and beyond. Now this ability is 100% for the first enemy, 80% for the second,

Yes, Bane now sucks. But, with Demi-Bahamut and the fact that Painflare is now a 5s cooldown, our AoE burst is stronger than ever. Most things won't survive the 30s DoT duration anyway.

4- Fester: Another Aetherflow ability nerfed. Previously it was 100 potency per dot with the potential of 300 max potency (which should always be hit because a summoner shouldn't let dots drop off). Now, it's 150 for one dot and 200 for both.....a 100 potency loss on one of our biggest Dps skills

Tooltip is wrong. Fester has been shown to deal more damage than Painflare in videos.
If you want to comment on job changes, at least try to gather as much information as possible.

5 - Spur removed: a 40% damage buff to our pets for 20 seconds removed. Usually used for higher damaged Enkindles.

If the 15% proc chance stays the same, then we'll see a proc every 6 to 7 skills from our pet. Using a skill takes 3 seconds, but you have more than just the basic attack, so we can round it down to around 6*3 = 18 sec. For the sake of it, let's just round it up to one proc every 20 seconds. It means that Enkindle will get reduced around 6 times during the cooldown duration.
tl;dr version: Enkindle is now a 120s cooldown and not 180 on average. Of course, it's RNG, but these averages should be correct.

We'll need a bit more theory crafting on the matter, but the loss of Spur isn't as bad as it sounds.

6- Miasma II removed: this was generally used instead of Bane + Miasma on 4+ enemies since it didn't suffer the 50% damage penalty on the 4th mob and beyond (as listed above). Again, another AoE dps loss.

Same as #3. But yeah, they wanted to bring down AoE damage. It's a nerf, but it's not surprising. Miasmas II was shitty to use anyway and the conditions for it to be a DPS gain made that skill very situational to use outside of dungeon trash pulls.

7- The Ruin spells: We got ruin IV....so everything should be good....right? Well, it's 200 potency which is the same as Ruin III used to be (SE nerfed Ruin III down to 150 potency now) and can only be used as a 15% chance after your pet used a spell or weaponskill. So, a 15% chance every 3 seconds (the base recast on pet skills). Now, Ruin II did get a small damage buff from 80 -> 100 potency....but the mp cost was also increased from 353 to 480mp (along with Ruin III increased from 1060 to 1440mp).

MP cost go up with your level... you know that, right? These are Lv.70 MP costs.
On the subject of the Ruin III's potency decrease, well, it seems that you missed two things: 1) Tri-Disaster gives a potency buff to all Ruin spells, 2) We get freaking Demi-Bahamut, which echoes our actions with a Shockwave. These Shockwaves should be way faster than our pet basic skill, and also have way more potency. So, the "nerf" of Ruin III is completly wiped when Bahamut shows his face.

8- Well, what about Bio III and Miasma III? Bio III is a 40 potency dot which lasts 30 second and Miasma III is the same potency and time. These replace all the previous dots we used. So every dot tick we will get 80 potency. Previously, we used to use 3 dots with potencies of 40 (Bio), 35 (Bio II) and 35 (Miasma). So, with these 3 dots we had 110 potency going off every tick. Yes, they did have different cast times but if you weren't bad you could keep them up constantly.

If you were to make a parse on 30 seconds for our current DoT, you'd have to recast Bio and Miasma when they end. It means that it takes you 2 GCD to make your DoT stay 30s. Outside of DT, you are also more likely to be hard casting your DoT, meaning that you'd need 3 GCD.
In short, you need 5 GCD to apply and keep your DoT for 30 seconds.

In Stormblood, DT will reset Tri-disaster, meaning that your DoT should always be up, without having to hard cast them. So, that's 5 GCD that you can dedicate to Ruin spam, accounting the fact that Tri-disaster increases your Ruins potency.

In short, the DoT "rotation" got way stronger in Stormblood if you don't strickly compares them to the current ones. Because with the other changes in the job, it makes no sense to do a straight comparison.

9- Using Aetherflow during Dreadwyrm Trance: This is no longer possible (Trance blocks you from using it) which means we can no longer use a Fester during our Trance rotation again giving us a Dps loss)

Use Aetherflow before going in DT. That's what you should be doing right now anyway.

10 - But, But, you do have Bahamut. Yea, which is only useable for 20 seconds every 2+ minutes at the best (considering the enemy doesn't go invincible or changes forms to drop off dots). On top of this Akh Morn does decreasing potency on additional enemies and for an FYI - it's about the same potency as Foul that a Blm can cast without the hassle of going through 2 Dreadwyrm Trances.

Foul doesn't create Shockwaves everytime you blink, Akh Morn can be used twice, and Demi-Bahamut still proc Ruin IV. So yeah, Demi-Bahamut is rock solid in terms of DPS gain.

11 - Shadowflare: sure, it's an instinct cast now, but it has a 60 second recast time with a 30 second duration where previously we could keep it up 100% of the time. Again, a pretty big AoE dps loss....

Instant cast means that you win a free GCD. Shadowflare+Ruin III is "only" 100 potency lower than the current Shadowflare on 1mn. If you get a Ruin IV, the gap is even closer.
But yes, that's an AoE nerf... only if what you need to kill lasts more than 30 seconds.


Good job at getting half of that stuff wrong, and exagerating the other half.

[spf1200]

Did you guys actually read the tooltips on abilities or are you just echoing what others are saying? There where many typos in the SMN abilities until the game is out and we see what the abilities really do you can't say that is is nerfed. Also miasma 2 has always been garbage don't understand why people are trying to claim that its removal is a bad thing.

[Ralts]

Did you guys actually read the tooltips on abilities or are you just echoing what others are saying? There where many typos in the SMN abilities until the game is out and we see what the abilities really do you can't say that is is nerfed. Also miasma 2 has always been garbage don't understand why people are trying to claim that its removal is a bad thing.

These people fear change. I don't think SE will take it seriously.

[Texa]

Did you guys actually read the tooltips on abilities or are you just echoing what others are saying? There where many typos in the SMN abilities until the game is out and we see what the abilities really do you can't say that is is nerfed. Also miasma 2 has always been garbage don't understand why people are trying to claim that its removal is a bad thing.

The only practical use I ever saw for it was for slowing down the blobs in the tornado phase on living liquid. Generally it just seemed like a high mp sink of a spell for very little damage though.

[Senliten]

If you want to comment on job changes, at least try to gather as much information as possible.

I doubt anyone will seeing the first thing of information gathering, would be to recreate the same scenario with close to equiv variables. Which would be 270 fully upped shire+weap to compare to the AF 290 gear demoed, and then simply using the dots and fester and record hard numbers. But with only a week and a half away from EA, I seriously doubt people will do that and just wait it out. Right now I have doubts that the tooltip is incorrect and no one has said anything to state otherwise esp with how some JP tooltips have shown to be correct as compared to some already translated. So if anything someone would have said something by now.

It's honestly big changes like this that I wish SE would wise up and let players play on a test realm, even if temporarily, and not from a select few from mere 'tours'. Just so speculation can be curbed and actual player insight and criticism can be given. I mean hell, I haven't seen this much outrage even when Wizards back in the day on EQ ended up getting shafted post Shadows of Luclin, thanks to the manaburn parties, for at least 3 to 4 expansions, but maybe that's because we were able to see what we were in for and could try and help the class out. And by shafted, i mean shafted to the point Dev's would not consider giving us any real heavy hitting nukes for the longest time, thus stagnating our spell choices and making us use old 58/59 spells in lvl 65+ content, cause they were still the only viable options to be had... for 3+ years