Need or Greed? A Question of Etiquette.

[Areonus]

My question is, "Why are people not playing the job they need gear for if they need gear so badly as to be upset by other people "needing" on gear that they rightfully earned by playing that job"
"Also why is your alt job, which is not in the dungeon, equally entitled to gear that drops when I'm the one currently playing the job, especially if I don't know you even have hat job?"

In short, if you want gear either go as that job or SAY SOMETHING when the gear drops. plenty of people, (myself included) will pass if asked. Don't expect us to handicap our own progression or desires without actually asking.

[winsock]

My question is, "Why are people not playing the job they need gear for if they need gear so badly as to be upset by other people "needing" on gear that they rightfully earned by playing that job"
"Also why is your alt job, which is not in the dungeon, equally entitled to gear that drops when I'm the one currently playing the job, especially if I don't know you even have hat job?"

In short, if you want gear either go as that job or SAY SOMETHING when the gear drops. plenty of people, (myself included) will pass if asked. Don't expect us to handicap our own progression or desires without actually asking.

You are avoiding the question. What is greed there for if you have the option to need? What do you think its purpose is?

What if the other party member wants it for the seals, not their alt?

[Areonus]

Greed only parties are a thing. And if someone else wants it for seals not an alt, well then they can need on things that drop for their current Job. Gear drops are RNG, I have neither the time nor the inclination of subjecting myself to a second round of RNG just to appease someone else's sense of fairness and cooperation, which is precisely what greeding is.

[Valenth]

TL;DR - As we stand now it's considered okay to roll need on things you don't actually need because it's impossible to have everyone act on the same and more selfless manners (even if this probably is preferred by the designers of this game) without shoving it down out throats. This is more out of a practical point of view however, as the current system doesn't allow much practical leeway. It's not wrong but rather commendable of you if you do roll greed though, and let no one tell you otherwise. Some people may laugh at you for following such unwritten rules, even call it self-destructive and such, but you're doing the right thing.

Personally I roll greed on something if it's not an actual upgrade for me at that moment. I just find if you roll need because of anything else but the actual direct upgrade reason it's really your greed making you roll need, which makes the wording used in-game kinda ironic. Maybe that's my biology class in me speaking, where need meant something you require to directly survive. Anything else are desires, which I'll put under the the meaning of greed.

I just find it an ethical disservice towards the community as a whole to not share the chance for others to roll on the drops as well. I mean, I don't directly need it in order to keep playing or having access to this game at all, so in my eyes it's not an actual need in the definition of the word. Just grabbing it because the game allows you to I find akin to saying a whole lot of other things being okay because you have the possibility to. I'm talking about, say, using oversights and loopholes in programming, bugs, etc. Under oversight specifically I classify not thinking extensively about morals when designing a system, an accident in design basically.

I'm saying this because no doubt some will say "but the system was intentionally designed like this". Just try to imagine guys - ask Yoshi-P himself how he ideally sees the players working together regarding this system and how do you think he'll he answer? I'm sure most of you will agree he'd be greatly in favor of people playing 'his' game being thoughtful of each other as this fosters the community as a whole, which is the thing that makes this game such a success. In other words, if he'd have the opportunity to design this system again with the knowledge he has now, he'd probably implement the system differently to prevent needing for greed purposes. This is a good example of where design and intention/morality just suffered an oversight, a lack of thinking ahead so to speak. Or it's possibly cultural difference designed based on how Japanese culture is (the many before the individual) and thus the Japanese developers of this game simply did not think further out of their habits of never needing if they don't actually need it.

What happens now is that a lot of people started rolling need on these things because they're afraid if they roll greed they'll miss out on things because others are constantly rolling need when they don't actually need in the definition of the word. I think because one person doing this usually snowballs three (or more people) into doing it as well we're at an impasse in the current loot system. It requires everyone to make it work ethically right, and only one person to mess said unwritten system up. So unless either the current loot system is being reworked or magically the community perspective changes, the consensus is that it's alright to roll need on things you don't actually need, even if the wording would imply otherwise. Yes, it may ethically cause some grief, but practically there isn't a better way to handle this right now in our (western) community.

[Alien_Gamer]

Need is there to give a priority roll on something that class can use. What you want to use it for is irrelevant because all uses are equally valid. If more than one person can need, its a lottery between them.
Greed is an equal opportunity lottery for stuff that isn't used by your class. Likewise, all reasons for rolling greed on an item are equally valid.

There is nothing unethical or wrong about rolling need when given the option.

[Areonus]

I just find it an ethical disservice towards the community as a whole to not share the chance for others to roll on the drops as well.

Except everyone did have a chance to roll on it. Right when the chest opens. RNG decides what gear drops, all Hitting greed does is add a second step to the process, meaning Instead of getting because I got lucky and stuff for my Job dropped, I know have to get lucky twice, whereas the other members of my party only have to be lucky once. That to me seems to be an inherently unfair situation.
There is no ethical dilemma here other than one people are inventing because they FEEL like the system is "unfair."

[Xylas]

So I recently asked my FC what the etiquette on gear rolling was because I felt like some of the players I encountered in DF roll Need on gear simply because they can. The general consensus among my FC mates was that the decent thing to do is to only roll Need for glamour or upgrade purposes or for unique items (minions, TT cards, etc), which is the philosophy I adhere to. I then became curious what the community at large thinks are acceptable reasons to roll Need.

So my question: Why do you roll Need?

I ask beforehand if I can roll Need if it's for glamour. If it's a pet I already have, I pass, regardless of how much it sells for.
If it's not an upgrade I pass. If it's an upgrade for another class I Greed since it's my only option. If I lose, oh well.

[Naunet]

Greed only parties are a thing. And if someone else wants it for seals not an alt, well then they can need on things that drop for their current Job. Gear drops are RNG, I have neither the time nor the inclination of subjecting myself to a second round of RNG just to appease someone else's sense of fairness and cooperation, which is precisely what greeding is.

It's not a second round of RNG if you all roll GREED for seals. It's one layer. Something will always drop. Everyone helped with the boss kill. No one needs it for upgrade/glamour? Everyone gets a shot at the loot for seals.

[SenorPatty]

So are we still debating need/greed before or after someone speaks up? Because I can already tell you one implies that people are psychically aware of other people's needs while the other doesn't.

[Mavrias]

You are avoiding the question. What is greed there for if you have the option to need? What do you think its purpose is?

What if the other party member wants it for the seals, not their alt?

It's there for if I don't particularly want any of the benefits it could provide, but just so it doesn't hit the floor if everyone else passes. You need the gear for an alt job? Why don't you ask me to pass. If a person is also looking for seals, then I expect them to need on any gear they can as well.