We're all DDs now >.>

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It looks like he intentionally played it in an embarrassing way that he would have more down time to derp around. Someone who is actually playing healer will avoid all overhealing and enmity generation possible, which is something that you can't do if your healing comes entirely from using Medica, Medica II, Regen on targets. I'm sure the tank had to work overtime to carry this "healer"

Okay. Now I am convinced you simply don't know healing very well. I have had tanks who were in 235 gear and didn't use a single CD yet I still had downtime, albeit nowhere near my norm. Likewise, I have ran Expert hundreds of times by now and never once have I had to fully heal. In fact, my general average is 60-80% Cleric uptime.

Swiftcast -> Holy -> Cleric Stance -> Divine Seal -> Regen -> Aero III -> Aero II -> Aero -> Fluid Aura -> Presence of Mind -> Stone III

That one HoT will do all the healing I need for most pulls on Solm Al hard. On the few occasions I do get shoddy tanks. I'll drop Cleric after Stone III spam and toss out Tetra.

[RhaegarFFXIFenrir]

It looks like he intentionally played it in an embarrassing way that he would have more down time to derp around. Someone who is actually playing healer will avoid all overhealing and enmity generation possible, which is something that you can't do if your healing comes entirely from using Medica, Medica II, Regen on targets. I'm sure the tank had to work overtime to carry this "healer"

Most healers don't play in the way you describe here. Also, let's be honest, no tank worth his salt would have any problem dealing with this play-style of healing. Taika just demonstrated how a GOOD healer operates.

There is a problem with your video though, Taika. You played the healing aspect of WHM well. Your tank was decently geared for that content and used his cooldowns. Your dps players dodged AOE's and gathered for gather mechanics. In short, their good play also minimized the need for you to heal. That being said, even in horrible parties I can still find the time to toss out DoTs and the occasional AOE nuke.

In a way this whole discussion is kind of moot. In a couple weeks SB is coming out and with it healer DPS stance dancing will be a thing of the past. With MND-based nukes and no need to manage a stance dance, there will be ZERO excuse for a healer to not toss out dots and nukes inbetween their cures.

[KisaiTenshi]

Okay. Now I am convinced you simply don't know healing very well. I have had tanks who were in 235 gear and didn't use a single CD yet I still had downtime, albeit nowhere near my norm. Likewise, I have ran Expert hundreds of times by now and never once have I had to fully heal. In fact, my general average is 60-80% Cleric uptime.

Swiftcast -> Holy -> Cleric Stance -> Divine Seal -> Regen -> Aero III -> Aero II -> Aero -> Fluid Aura -> Presence of Mind -> Stone III

That one HoT will do all the healing I need for most pulls on Solm Al hard. On the few occasions I do get shoddy tanks. I'll drop Cleric after Stone III spam and toss out Tetra.

Your experience is different from mine. I use entirely PUG groups, and have adapted to numerous bad situations. The number of times that I got a "perfect" combo of good tank and good DPS can be counted on one hand. Just last night I had one DF group of three sprouts who didn't even know what direction to go (level 51 dungeon,) followed by one that had two crowns and a player who hadn't completed the dungeon.

I don't mind playing these things when people are learning, but there is no way am I going to tell a tank how to play their role. If they say "use regen on me" I will, if they say "dps that thing" maybe that can be done. But if the extent of their advise is railing on how I play, I'm just going to click off the party chat. I know what I'm doing, unless your advice is actually meaningful, which all "healer must DPS" advice is bunk, I'm not going to care. There is a difference between "you're doing it wrong, quit being bad" and "could you cast X please?"

You know which light party duty tends to have the most downtime from the way I play? Amdapoor Keep (Hard), because people have run this enough that they know how to use the vines to whack the monsters, thus the only wipes don't come from the bosses, but the DPS standing under the vines too. The way this duty is setup, the hardest boss is the boogeyman when players don't pay attention, and that's the one that overhealing becomes a magnet for all the adds. Can't be helped if players ignore the mechanics.

What about 8-man content? people are so bored of 8-man content and it shows when it's designed for two tanks but you only need one tank and one healer to actually get to the boss, and then it becomes something of a joke in Castrum Meridianum at the end. if a tank and healer want to DPS instead, be my guest but don't complain.

I actually find The Praetorium's Ultima Weapon (v2.0) and Keeper of the Lake's Midgardsomr (2.5) some of the better level 50 content that is actually designed to use the healing skills because of the generally high-damage party attacks.

I'd rather play The World of Darkness repeatedly with bad PUG's and expect the occasional carries than play leveling roulette with people who want to be carried by asking for healer DPS. No, you learn to play the duty properly, either by going slower, gearing better, or watching a video if you're unwilling to try things for yourself. It is not a requirement to watch a video either. The healer pulling out the DPS is entirely at the discretion of the healer, and from what I've read on the forums, there's just as many bad healers doing DPS as there are that won't DPS. You are playing a game, this is not a competitive sport, and you are not being paid for it. If you are streaming on Twitch or Youtube, maybe heads-up to avoid making embarrassing comments in the chat.

[Kaisinel]

I'd rather play The World of Darkness repeatedly with bad PUG's and expect the occasional carries than play leveling roulette with people who want to be carried by asking for healer DPS. No, you learn to play the duty properly

More often then not, players asking healers to dps are not looking for a carry. Players asking the healer to not afk is the main goal.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

More often then not, players asking healers to dps are not looking for a carry. Players asking the healer to not afk is the main goal.

You'd be surprised. 9/10 times the player asking the healer to dps is the full thrust spamming DRG or the lvl 50 rot BLM. One time saw a Shadow fang nonninjutsu NIN do it as well. Odds seems to be highly in favor of a dps demanding the healer deeps to let them stay bad.

Odds are based on what I see on a nightly four hours spent running content with it occurring at least five times a night, over the last year and a half.

[Kaisinel]

You'd be surprised. 9/10 times the player asking the healer to dps is the full thrust spamming DRG or the lvl 50 rot BLM. One time saw a Shadow fang nonninjutsu NIN do it as well. Odds seems to be highly in favor of a dps demanding the healer deeps to let them stay bad.

Odds are based on what I see on a nightly four hours spent running content with it occurring at least five times a night, over the last year and a half.

I find myself in duty finder quite a bit, and I barely see people even ask Healers to dps.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I find myself in duty finder quite a bit, and I barely see people even ask Healers to dps.

Difference is the data center. I know I run into it all the time: Had a Dun Scaith run go south cause my party kept yelling at the healers to dps at Hollow. I wound up just sitting in a corner and watching as everyone died.

I really do hate clerics stance.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Your experience is different from mine. I use entirely PUG groups, and have adapted to numerous bad situations. The number of times that I got a "perfect" combo of good tank and good DPS can be counted on one hand. Just last night I had one DF group of three sprouts who didn't even know what direction to go (level 51 dungeon,) followed by one that had two crowns and a player who hadn't completed the dungeon.

You assume I ran with premades. I don't. That skill order is my standard PUG rotation. I merely adapt based on the tank. Even poorly geared or downright bad tanks don't need 100% attention. As I said, I have healed min ilvl tanks through Baelsar's Wall without hindrance. Bit annoying since he didn't use CDs, but I still managed to DPS fairly high. Granted, I should have bopped him for it but I digress.

The rest of your response... is little more than a rant. You continue to presume healers must constantly heal yet oddly contradict yourself by acknowledging most 8-man content doesn't need two healers. By that admission, you've essentially admitted if neither DPS, one is effectively doing nothing. Your words, albeit it indirectly, not mine. Either way, what does any of this have to do with anything being discussed? I pointed out the lack of dedicated healing required and you've... rambled on about bad DPS and adaption-- something you do not seem to comprehend yourself given how argumentative you've been towards people explaining to you that is precisely how they stay in Cleric so long. All people have asked is everyone evenly contribute. You can bury your head in the sand all you fancy but if the tank and DPS have 300+ abilities cast and you only have 50. Well, who's carrying whom?

[Neophyte]

You assume I ran with premades. I don't. That skill order is my standard PUG rotation. I merely adapt based on the tank. Even poorly geared or downright bad tanks don't need 100% attention. As I said, I have healed min ilvl tanks through Baelsar's Wall without hindrance. Bit annoying since he didn't use CDs, but I still managed to DPS fairly high. Granted, I should have bopped him for it but I digress.

Two days ago our tank dc'ed before the first add Group and didn't return. Our new one came in just after the 1st boss. The boss was tanked by the BLM. Still able to do damage (at least after crit aspected benefic shield and after i gave him buffed bole). Nuff said.

[KisaiTenshi]

The rest of your response... is little more than a rant.

You're just cherry picking the argument you want to fight. Look I'll summarize what has been said between the three threads in the general forum and the last 8 years of FFXIV:

A) The Healer is meant to heal, both Yoshi-P and the game's own storyline and even this Hall of the newbie that I didn't even know existed until someone mentioned it say this over and over again:


The only time attacking as a healer even comes up is "When nobody is bleeding", which is something that again, only happens in F.A.T.E's not Dungeon play. Even in V1.0 the emphasis was on healing.

B) The game does not do a good job with it's AI companions, not only can you not "party" them, or other players pets, for the purposes of the tutorial, the game does something that you tend to only see in F.A.T.E's



That being, the AI characters act nothing like players, they stand in avoidable AOE's, all the well telling you to avoid it. Who else does this? Pets and mounts. You could be forgiven thinking that every AI character and monster in the game is exceptionally stupid. This is why "escort missions" are some of the most loathed game mechanics in all games, because the AI is just too dumb to avoid being hit, and is for all intents a pincushion. If SE is listening, how about making high level monsters and humanoids try to dodge player AOE's? How about making pets/companions dodge AOE's?

C) The game is turned based for all it tries to hide it. It is not an Action RPG, it's more entertaining than say SW:TOR (which is turned based, but has a decent storyline, far less dumb companion AI, just boring gameplay), and has outlasted dozens of other MMORPG try-hards that have otherwise better action elements and next to nothing for story.

If the game seriously wanted healers to primarily DPS and only heal 17% of the time like someone earlier in one of the threads mockingly suggested, all the healing would be HoT, and you'd have far more combat tools. That is not the case, everything but Stone has some application in a group battle. In a solo battle, the effects of stone let you keep your distance from the target. Assize, Aero III, Holy are meant to be used for their effects on a group. Repose and Fluid Aura are meant to be used on single targets

Aero II+Aero +Fluid Aura (to knock back the target)+Repose to put them to sleep while the DoT's tick down. While it's asleep heal yourself. When the mob wakes up, hit them with stone to slow them down, and repeat. Do people play this way? Not really, they would rather just tank single mobs. When in group play, you can't use Fluid Aura because it makes the Tank mad having to chase things, and you can't use Repose because the DPS will just keep shooting anyway from auto-attack.

D) If your skills are tools in a toolbox, use the right tools. I reject the argument that "you're not using all the tools", some of these tools are not useful, and counter-productive outside of solo play. Other tools were clearly designed for dungeon play and have no practical use in solo play because there are no crowd-control situations where this is useful (like really, who spam's Holy at a single mob?) At the beginning of V2.0 people used to use sleep effects all the time (in fact the RMT bots were very fond of it on THM, and it was a tell for those) now I never seen anyone use it because as I mentioned above, people won't stop shooting things that are sleeping. More to the point, name a boss that this actually works on. No the entire point of sleep was so you could take down a single target in a multi-target situation while you have no AOE's. If we were really arguing that you should use every tool in the tool box, everyone would still be using sleep and repose as their first tool, not discarding it once they get an AOE attack.

E) The internet spoils everything. So instead of finding the best strategy by yourself through trial and error, or maybe experience from other combat in the game, everyone is all to quick to cite whatever BiS gear and min-max DPS rotation as suggested by the tutorial/video instead of maybe figuring out better solutions or maybe what the developer's intent was. They give you 90 minutes to do a dungeon for a reason. If you can complete it in 12, or solo, that's because you are WAY overgeared for it.

Which brings me to the reason I mentioned 8-mans earlier. For all intents, as the game progresses, people have found ways of skipping entire sections of the game, found ways to use emergent gameplay (like bringing mobs to the cannons, instead of fighting them where they spawn like the developers intended) and SE has said nothing about it. This is another variation where people do things because that's what experience with that duty calls for. I can't tell you how frequently back in V2.0 players would spam these things for tomes, and all the newbies got steamrolled over not knowing why we were running mob trains. But clearly Yoshi-P has a problem with healers being "forced to DPS when they want to heal" by players claiming that the game mechanics require them to. It does not, and it has never.

F) There are players who will refuse to DPS, point blank, because that is not what they signed up for, they signed up to heal, not be a third DPS. Let them play it that way, because again the game does not require that. If you are after the Savage content, you form your own static to play it, because you're not going to train a PUG party, and if you want to farm something out of it, you're going to get stuck training every party that somehow forms after 5 hours. The Savage content also doesn't require you to DPS as a healer, but good luck getting a party together since everyone wants to rush these dungeons instead of learn them. Are you saving 10 seconds, 10 minutes, 30 minutes if you DPS? Who cares, clearly there are people who take the game too seriously and would rather waste time arguing and re-queing than just rolling with what they get in a PUG.

G) There are also healer players who just jump into cleric stance and do nothing but DPS. That's what they do in 8/24 man content because they can get away with it. They can't get away with that in 4-man content, and will get called on it because that "cleric stance" indicator says they aren't healing efficiently or at all. In 8-man and 24 man content, you can just ignore that unless the the lack of healing is causing wipes. Because of the amount of time required to start a raid, people are more likely to put up with a bad healer than they are going to put up with a bad DPS carry.

H) If the player skill mechanics are going to change and be simplified, then all advice out there needs to be thrown away with it. I would not be surprised if they (SE) changed the game mechanics so that everything people learned up to now doesn't work anymore.

Just look at the Red Mage skills descriptions. You are going to be told to do combos to save up for bigger booms . It's very likely the "lilies" for WHM is the same thing. You will be needing to do a fair amount more healing and don't get to do any large DPS booms without it.