We're all DDs now >.>

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

no amount salt is tastier than the salt from someone throwing a hissy fit because the healer's not doing any damage.

You I like. Great priorities.

[Dyvid]

This ol' debate again huh? Well I'll just post this ol' response:



As a SMN I wonder if I can get away with "I don't want to raise people, I'm DPS" after both healers die....

[Alistaire]

How the game must be played:

Healer heals, Dps does damage, Tank protects the party.

How elitists and pseudo elitist want EVERYONE to play the game:

Healer DPS and sometimes heals, focus on DPS at all times, damage dealer, its ok, do anything you want just be sure to blame the healer for any wipe, Tanks protect the party and most importanlty do DPS, NEVER be in tank stance always dps stance.

FF XIV in a nutshell.

When you're gonna strawman that badly, you might as well have typed out "I have no valid argument here". It's less characters; less of a waste of your (and our) time.

[Kaisinel]

Somebody who is condescending to others who want to play their own way instead of min/maxing it out is usually what elitist do regardless what mmo is being played.

If people don't want to run into pure healers so badly then don't DF or make a pre-made group instead of expecting random people to cater to your own way of playing.

So simply asking someone to do more than afk 70% of a dungeon is not considered elitism.

[KisaiTenshi]

This ol' debate again huh? Well I'll just post this ol' response:

(image taken out of context)

As a SMN I wonder if I can get away with "I don't want to raise people, I'm DPS" after both healers die....

Are you regularly playing content so poorly that you need to use Physick or Resurrection? That's the same toolbox argument taken out of context.

If you queued as DPS, you offer extremely low healing capability as summoner or Arcanist, do you feel compelled to help healer with your low-healing capacity? The reason you can heal at all is for solo play, just like the WHM/CNJ's ability to DPS is for solo play.

Those tools exist and aren't locked away because your role should be obvious. They allow those other tools to be used during dungeon play because it doesn't make sense to disable some tools only in the dungeon, and there will be cases where emergent play can happen, because it's no PvP content. PvP content they disable some tools that are unfair, and you can't use them out side of PvP because it sends mixed messages about which skills should be used during dungeon play.

Here's a better analogy. Your pipes are leaking to your shower. Do you

A) Call a plumber, and have them rip apart your wall to fix the pipes, but fixes the pipes correctly, leaving a hole in the wall.
or
B) Call your handyman uncle bob, who rips apart the wall and lacks the tools to actually fix anything , so he duct tapes the leak and duct tapes over the hole in the wall.

Note that A, the plumber only does his job and leaves, leaving either you to solve the problem or call another person to fix the wall. For B, while something of an exaggeration, this comes from experience. For legal reasons the Plumber may not be allowed to fix anything BUT the pipes because their insurance won't cover them if they screw up anything else and you turn around and sue them. For B, Uncle bob doesn't have insurance, and if he screws up you will be paying more to fix the problem correctly.

When you force someone to "do everything", they are not good at everything. Hence the term "A Jack of all trades, Master of none", everyone has something they are good at, but they become miserable when they are forced to.

As for that Sylphie image, that is taken out of context because Sylphie was using her own life force to heal instead of using the natural forces. It has nothing to do with DPS.

[Kazrah]

Are you regularly playing content so poorly that you need to use Physick or Resurrection? That's the same toolbox argument taken out of context.

Love how he mentioned Resurrection and you went on a tirade about using Physick.

Also, to be fair, Uncle Bob did at least fix the hole in the wall....

When you force someone to "do everything", they are not good at everything.

Um, you do realize this is about non-DPS being forced to DPS, right?

[Belhi]

As a SMN I wonder if I can get away with "I don't want to raise people, I'm DPS" after both healers die....

This happens pretty often in pugs. I generally don't see people complaining about it on the forums though.

The OP has a point. The design of the game, intentional or not, is pushing towards dps being the driving factor in all roles. Sure a healer has to heal enough for people not to die but if they can match that requirement people don't care. They are more interested in what else they bring. There is a reason AST and WAR are considered standout OP in their roles.

This is a valid issue. It is a design issue. It is a balance issue. Healer jobs are designed about being healers not dps. Their dps mechanics are rather shallow (even more so with the removal of Cleric stance) and tacked on. They also tend to be inefficient, particularly with MP. If healers are to dps regularly this aspect of their Job shouldn't be skimped on. Arguing that just healing is more boring than dpsing as well doesn't make the dpsing aspect any less boring and from a game design perspective that isn't ok.

Having a design issue like this is more likely to push people away from healing because they find the healing aspect unsatisfying and the dps aspect unsatisfying.

The other side of this is that healing is a different gameplay. People who like healing usually do because it is different to dpsing. Some people like healing. Some find it boring. However the reverse is very true as well. There are people who find dps very boring. Healing in this game is very underwhelming. The very fact that there is so much downtime, even on new content, just goes to show that mechanically healing in this game is broken. People chose a healer role to heal and the mechanics should be there to support that properly.

This is being discussed because people are upset about this and that is important. Dissatisfaction with the design of the gameplay they favour needs to be presented because if it isn't then that is just as likely to kill their interest in that gameplay as it is for them to just silently put up with it.

[RhaegarFFXIFenrir]

Here's a novel concept: if DPSfrom everyone is maximized, monsters die quicker. Faster mob death means the Tank has to do less work to maintain enmity and healers have to do less work to heal.

No one is asking tanks to be in DPS stance full time or healers to be in cleric stance full time. However, if the tank is using their defensive cooldowns and self cures (yes, tanks ARE supposed to heal themselves...this is the whole purpose behind tanks having self cures in the first place!), and healer's are tossing a regen or two on the tank (or just a shield and fairy for SCH) then there is plenty of time for you to Cleric Stance, bust out a few DoTs or AOEs, and take Cleric Stance off LONG before the tank or any DPSneeds a cure.

It's not stressful, but healer DPSdoes rely on the tank knowing what he's doing and the DPS dodging aoe's. If you've got a Tank and DPS observing those mechanics, then realistically as a healer there's very little damage coming in, and you SHOULD be pounding out the deeps. Effort and team work: those are the building blocks of party play in a MMO. Those people in the "I only heal" camp don't understand either of these concepts, and often have larger issues as players than just their lack of dps.

[Pells]

Remember those old MMORPGs where healer had to sit down inbetween casts to recover MP faster? Cos I do. Yeah,you werent healing all the time,but boy,you sure had to sit down to get your MP back.

With the spellbook open so you couldn't even see the fight? Yes.

[Taika]

The line is drawn I don't do duty finder solo.

You didn't answer any of my questions though: what is acceptable from the random pickup members in your groups?

Also I didn't see anyone mentioning elitist about the amount of dps people do. Unrealistic is the word I would like to use. It is unrealistic to think that someone who doesn't know you or fear the consequences to perform above a sub par level. Elitist is something you have to look at yourself and see how you interact with people.

I don't know if you're referring to me with this, or what, but I don't think my expectations are on an unrealistic level. If they were, I would be kicking (or trying to kick) people every day for not meeting the standards. What I ask from my team members, regardless of their job, is to be there, actually present, and actively participate and somewhat do what they're supposed to do. I don't really care for their numbers either if I see them even trying to follow a sensible rotation (and if they're not, then too I'll try to offer them some friendly advice instead of kicking them). I fail to see how this would be "elitist" or too much to ask.

And I don't kick people (other reasons than for being offline, I mean) unless they are very rude, have a horrible attitude or refuse to cooperate with others. Luckily this has only happened a few times during all these years I've played the game.

There are no 4-man duties that have downtime.

What? Here's some downtime for you: https://youtu.be/jBgMe5uHPsE?t=565. This was with a tank who had never tanked the dungeon before and didn't have any gear from the current patch, and with a DRG who also didn't have gear and hadn't really played DRG at all. (The BLM was experienced and progressing in A11S at the time). Here's the boss fight from that run - tons of downtime again! I had only 17% activity on that run (with 36% overheal!!!), and like I said, the tank didn't have any gear from the current patch and had not tanked the dungeon ever before (he'd actually only done it a couple of times). If that's not downtime, I don't know what is.