We're all DDs now >.>

[FallenWings]

I'd rather be a Dark Knight instead of a Tank or a White Mage instead of a Healer or a Ninja instead of a DD.

[BorisDaBlade]

I think once we reach level 65 with our i270 gear the instances will probably hinder the healer/tank dps meta just a bit. I remember the first couple of pulls in sohm al as being fairly hard hitting on the tank if the pulled the whole room in i130 gear.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

What defines an elitist in this game? It would seem anyone who cares to get better or play optimally is considered one.

What do we call the other stubborn players who decide to live within their own bubble in an MMO?

Somebody who is condescending to others who want to play their own way instead of min/maxing it out is usually what elitist do regardless what mmo is being played.

If people don't want to run into pure healers so badly then don't DF or make a pre-made group instead of expecting random people to cater to your own way of playing.

[Moonlite]

Where is the line drawn in this case? Is finishing a dungeon in 90 minutes ok for you? Is any player only using 1 ability throughout the content ok? Honestly wondering.

I personally expect everyone to actively participate and be willing to put some effort when they're doing group content. To me it's same as participating in any group hobby stuff like playing in a football team or singing in a choir: everyone is expected to play (or sing ) their part. This doesn't of course mean expecting optimal (or anywhere near) performance: simply active participation and good attitude.

The line is drawn I don't do duty finder solo. I pug potd, and 24 man raid (which is a mistake sometimes). I will also sch up to cutters since if one other person knows what they are doing you can heal/tank/dps those with eos. Everything else I find people I know or I don't do it. I actually quit WoW when they added this feature. I felt it was the worst thing for MMOs. We now have something that might require some attention and being anonymous. No repercussions of exclusion in further content. You remove community policing and we end up with bad players. This is the internet I did not see how it could turn out in any positive way.

Also I didn't see anyone mentioning elitist about the amount of dps people do. Unrealistic is the word I would like to use. It is unrealistic to think that someone who doesn't know you or fear the consequences to perform above a sub par level. Elitist is something you have to look at yourself and see how you interact with people.

[Gemina]

There is nothing wrong with expecting a healer and/or tank to go into their offensive stances. However, there is something wrong if they are kicked for not doing it. I can accept the "difference in playstyle" copout that devs use to prevent having to intervene with these quarrels, but I'll never accept it as proper etiquette.

It is counter productive to kick a healer or tank who is still doing the basics of their roles. You add time to the run by booting them, and for no good reason. It's still a crap shoot, and the in-progress joining player may very well be worse than the person you just kicked.

I have never felt the flow of a dungeon disturbed when tanks and healers don't DPS. This only happens when they don't perform the very basics of their role, and/or lack attention to what is going on in the battlefield. Anyone who has experienced a heavy minded DPS tank or healer who don't hold agro or heal should know how big of a difference these players are from the ones who only do the bare minimum. The former are far more detrimental to DF runs without question.

[Awful]

How the game must be played:

Healer heals, Dps does damage, Tank protects the party.

How elitists and pseudo elitist want EVERYONE to play the game:

Healer DPS and sometimes heals, focus on DPS at all times, damage dealer, its ok, do anything you want just be sure to blame the healer for any wipe, Tanks protect the party and most importanlty do DPS, NEVER be in tank stance always dps stance.

FF XIV in a nutshell.

You're quite the hypocrite, link some of that in here, again people are talking about the one word that people like you ignore: E F F O R T we're talking about not being lazy, use more than 3 buttons, contribute as a group not ignoring your first role which is healing or tanking.

[Aramina]

There is nothing wrong with expecting a healer and/or tank to go into their offensive stances. However, there is something wrong if they are kicked for not doing it. I can accept the "difference in playstyle" copout that devs use to prevent having to intervene with these quarrels, but I'll never accept it as proper etiquette.

Well said. That is where I fall as well. I want all party mates (healers or otherwise) to contribute all they are able to, but I would never initiate a kick for non-dps healers any more than I would for low DPS or tanks that struggle a bit on aggro (unless one of the latter 2 will prevent the party from completing our objective). The only things I have ever initiated a kick for are long afk/dc/being overtly rude(this one has only happened once that I can recall).

edit: I am not going to criticize anyone who does choose to kick because that's their cross to bear.

[KisaiTenshi]

It is supposed to focus a little attention on how 'dps centered' the game has become, in my mind to it's detriment. I've been playing since beta, and I never have seen such a focus on personal dps. Tanks were never expected to be out of tank stance as much as possible, healers were never expected to dps or be kicked. Extra dps was just that, 'extra and nice to have' but hardly something to be ridiculed or kicked/harassed for not doing. Outside of Coil, these 'healers not dps-ing enough' threads didn't exist, and raid progression is a totally different discussion since of course different expectations should exist there. I'm talking about the general "the healer didn't dps enough in my leveling roulette so let's kick them / the tank was in grit that whole boss fight - he/she sucks" mentality of today.

It's amazing how often people would rather cut their own nose off to spite their face.

Instead of maybe just going with who they choose to PUG with and avoiding unnecessary whine about DPS or not to DPS, these people would rather waste a half hour waiting for a new healer or tank just to get those extra DPS.

Like, I play the way I play, and I do not see any "downtime" that people say exists. The closest thing to "downtime" is when there is a single trash mob with high HP, otherwise the time required to stance dance and pull of a rotation does nothing to speed up the process when that monster will die in 5 seconds anyway. There are no 4-man duties that have downtime. If you're seeing downtime, congratulations you have a good party and maybe the tank/healer will have their hotkeys setup to take advantage of that.

When there is a single boss mob, you have to pay a lot more attention to the surroundings,

a) Adds - if adds spawn, pause healing until the tank grabs them, or bring the adds over to the tank so they don't have to drag the boss over to you

b) Buffs - Stoneskin and Protect are cast once, then don't bother again. However self-buffs like Divine Seal or Shroud of Saints can be cast whenever the CD ends

c) Clean - Remove the debuffs on other players with Esuna, unfortunately there is no consistancy as to which debuffs can be removed, so casting Esuna is often trial-and-error

d) Debuffs - Repose (how many people still use this?) is pretty much useless in a party because everyone just keeps hammering. It is useful in single player combat, but the other other debuffs from Aero/Stone/Holy DO NOT REQUIRE CLERIC STANCE.

e) Enmity - Healing generates Enmity, a bad healer ignores this and thus makes the Tank do more work. A good healer will only be healing while Enmity is green to avoid pulling the mobs away from the tank. Regen, Medica and Medica II pretty much tell the mobs "come get me"

f) Field - To avoid the AOE's, sometime even requires flipping the camera around and move forward to avoid "gaze" based AOE's.

g) Group - Who's taking damage? Can I click on them and throw Cure? are they nearby? Is something in my line of sight? Are they being tossed in the air?

h) Heal - The healer's primary concern is healing the tank unless the tank is taking very little damage in tank stance. That is the only condition where a healer may decide to try DPS. But that is the exception, not the rule.

Someone can not just stand still and cast cure. If a duty is not very demanding, yes you can conceivably do the entire dungeon by nothing but spot healing, but that ends when there are boss mechanics that punish standing in one place. This is why the SCH who has a healing pet can looks like they are appearing to do nothing, because their primary role pre-SCH was DPS, and those DPS skills are still there. Those DOT's don't generate nearly as much enmity as healing does. The healing pet in fact creates the illusion of far more downtime since the healing fairy on auto-pilot gives the SCH more opportunity to do damage negation through shields.

The Tank on the other hand is not supposed to need to heal themselves, and needs to make sure the Enmity is red for all mobs. If someone is pulling a mob away, you're not generating enough Enmity.

DPS is not supposed to be concerned with anything but throwing damage, and require very little situational awareness other than avoiding AOE's in the field. If they are smart they will pause their DPS if the enmity is indicating it will be drawn to the DPS instead of the tank.

People give way too much grief to Healers and Tanks, which are the same jobs that you always have to wait in the queue for, and people just aren't getting that their toxic behavior creates this. If you pick healer or tank, but primarily DPS, you inevitably will fail more duties or have people quit after wiping once.

I have seen more tank's ragequit after one wipe, and a lot of that comes back to trying to force their play style on others.

24-man raids, tend to have a few carries because you can't just sit there and wait for someone good, but you will get called out on "doing nothing", If Square-Enix was serious about keeping the game interesting and fun for the most amount of people, they would just just start nerfing the hard content in ways that your gear no longer matters.

[Lexia]

Yeah sure... But this is not about "vibes you get" from what people are saying, but to have a discussion you're supposed to actually read what they really say instead of making your own assumptions.

There are other interactions outside this forum also.

[Natashio]

This topic for the past 3 years.


Perhaps if players would just stop being so "meta", these topics would end.