NidhoggEX farm parties / EX Primal farms in general

[Isala]

(stuff) + It's much easier to feel self-righteous when you can pretend that the guy you're stepping on deserves it!

If that's the way you want to play, that's fine for you. But I'm sorry you feel I'm in the wrong for not wanting to carry people who do less damage than a White Mage while wearing full 270. At that point, you are not trying. You can't possibly be trying. Even if they used their 2.0 BLM rotation, they'd be doing more DPS than I am. But they're not. And sure. You've "never" seen Soar skipped. Which is even more pathetic. The whole point in running a 1/2/5 comp is specifically to skip Soar. Otherwise, you'd bring two tanks to make the Demon Claw easier later. And it's not like you actually have to do spectacular DPS...That's the worst part. You really don't have to push everything to the limit, if you're wearing the kind of gear a farm party expects to begin with. And I SERIOUSLY doubt the kinds of players who can't do the DPS to skip Soar are magically capable of doing the fight perfectly, because it is ALWAYS the underperformers who eat Southern Cross, laser the entire group, stretch tethers, refuse to get into a puddle because they don't have a color, after dying to one of the previous mistakes... And I say this as someone who has farmed this fight hard enough to buy 9 of the weapons with tokens... Luckily, I managed to roll well enough on the other 4...

As for the "self-righteous"? There's nothing self-righteous about it. It's not like I'm kicking him from the group. I'm simply taking the option of finding a group that fits my needs, that will clear faster, and not carry someone to a bird that I had to put all the effort in for. If the rest of the group wants to get him that bird, then they get him that bird, and he can be happy with it. I'm just choosing not to waste my own time, giving someone something that I want, and work for.

[LineageRazor]

As for the "self-righteous"? There's nothing self-righteous about it. It's not like I'm kicking him from the group. I'm simply taking the option of finding a group that fits my needs, that will clear faster, and not carry someone to a bird that I had to put all the effort in for. If the rest of the group wants to get him that bird, then they get him that bird, and he can be happy with it. I'm just choosing not to waste my own time, giving someone something that I want, and work for.

I think it's very much the case that a top-notch DPSing healer who knows their stuff can out-damage a casual DPS player who has a poor grasp of their rotations but is still playing with all their heart, even if that casual player has ground out a full set of 270 shire gear. Again, the statement "they can't possibly be trying" indicates that you, and many others, have a very poor grasp of exactly what "average player" really means. This game does not come close to educating players on how to optimize their rotations. Reading the tooltips isn't going to educate you on just how much spell speed you need to fit in that extra Fire IV. It's not going to tell you the times when trying to fit in a second oGCD between GCDs is a bad idea, and when it's a good idea.

To give you some perspective, the vast majority of those pick-up parties I mentioned that never skipped Soar? They WERE 1/2/5 comp! FIVE DPS, all trying their best, couldn't put out enough damage to skip Soar. THAT is what constitutes an average player in this game - and that is why Zurvan is tuned the way it is. SE hasn't tuned the fight to cater to people who "aren't trying". They've tuned the fight to people who don't parse or do online research to maximize their potential. People who believe that as long as they keep their oGCDs on cooldown and keep rotating their DPS combos, they're doing the best that their job is capable of.

You are, of course, welcome to restrict yourself to parties that do not contain average players, but you need to understand that the pool of folks who are above average is much smaller than that high-power players think they are, and as those individuals acquire their birds they're going to be dropping out of the race. You simply can't join any random group of people and expect them to do as well as your static. By allowing yourself to become infuriated by so-called "lazy players", by believing that a party is only "good" if certain mechanics are skipped, you're most likely not going to be collecting those birds until the level 70 cap trivializes the fights, simply because you'll not find enough parties to get the job done.

I see so many players post things that basically boil down to, "It's easy! I can do it! Why can't you do it? You must not be trying!" They just can't seem to understand that setting themselves as the baseline is phenomenally unfair. (Not to mention, doesn't a statement like this imply that they consider themselves to be the worst of the worst? "I can do it, therefore anyone can do it?" - doesn't that mean that they consider everyone else to be as good as, or better than they are?)

[Neophyte]

FIVE DPS, all trying their best,couldn't put out enough damage to skip Soar

That is either a lie or those people were not ready to do the currently hardest trial.
How do you even know that they were trying their best?
5 dps in >260 gear only do not skip soar (esp. if both healers attacking... they are not? Out of farm and back to kill groups with them. There is almost no incoming damage until Soar) only because of major issues in a rotation and not because you did use your biggest oGCD 2s before trick attack was applied.
Also what about the Stone, Sky, Sea? Did they all beat that without any room for improvement? No? Then it is not their best they can offer. (Zurvan Ex up to first soar is quite a dummy with 2 times moving max.)

I skipped soar in kill groups with 2 buddies, lol.

As said, if you still need practise (rotation wise and mechanic wise) don't join farms. Join kill or learning parties.
Again, "farm" is a player invented concept. Having only one kill and no bonus doesn't make you ready for a farm group per se.

SE has made the content so that you can clear it somehow with subpar damage.
But farming is not 'clearing somehow', it's 'clearing smooth amd quick'.
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Imagine a farm group of Sophia not skipping the first tankbuster (phase 1, before adds. Mpst people don't know that mechanic there).

Or A11s farm with not skipping first phase GA-100, lol.

That's not a farm group either and will always be disbanded. Always. And no one has ever said a thing that this is bad.

Where's the difference? Where to draw the line?

[Chalbee]

As said, if you still need practise (rotation wise and mechanic wise) don't join farms. Join kill or learning parties.

This is my usual approach as well. I won't join a farm without 3~4 successful smooth clears under my belt. The issue I'm noticing with Niddy is that "clear parties" I've joined die to stuff like learning parties might, and the "farm parties" I've joined look much more like clear parties with a lot of avoidable deaths and careless mistakes. It seems unusually difficult to find a group either a) good enough to get the kill in a clear party or b) patient enough to put up with a less-than-perfect farm. It's really infuriating! But from what I've read I must have just been lucky with my other farms to not have to deal with this before.

[Doki]

Niddy always seemed to go well for me until the final phase. People refused to grasp the concept of staying stacked for the multiple hits. Overall though, it is just random luck of the draw with groups. When you finnaly get a group that clicks and you knock out like 15 runs it feels so good. I think Sephirot took the most farms for me, and Zurvan was the most painful to get an actual clear for. I dislike that they removed the fights from raid finder. It made it much easier to filter out the liars.

That said, I am so freaking glad I got Firebird before the server moves killed my east coast pings.

[thegreatonemal]

Especially for something like Zurvan, if my co-healer and I are busting our backsides trying to push out as much DPS as possible pre-Soar, and we see it anyway because "I'ma ice mgae lulz!" wants to sit there and do nothing? Yeah. No. I'm not carrying him to a bird, because you know, you KNOW, that everyone else will have terrible rolls, that derp is going to win it, and immediately leave the farm party. I have lost too many birds and ponies to people that can't do DPS, can't tank, can't heal, can't stay on a platform or do mechanics, I'm done. All I need is the Zurvan bird, and I'm not watching it to go another terrible player after countless runs where I carried them. If that makes me a jerk, than so be it.

just run the thing 99 times and stop whining as long as you clear it really doesn't matter. just run the thing 99 times and stop whining as long as you clear it really doesn't matter. and before you go accusing me of being one of them i've run then all and cleared literately hundreds of times and lost birds cuz of low rolls before getting lucky and winning one and having to wait for the others for to token exchange

[Maero]

One other issue (maybe just server specific) is the day after new fight was released party finders were mostly filled with no newbies, must skip soar, etc...
This has happened since Sophia was released. The community has really changed for sure
I also will agree that in many so called "farm parties" there is always one or multiple people who had not done the fight beforehand, perhaps because of the reason above (not able to find groups) but i rarely expect people to be honest in pf

[LineageRazor]

Where's the difference? Where to draw the line?

Do they make the bad thing dead without any wipes? It's a farm.

To expect anything more than that, be sure you get all your farming done with the EARLY farm parties - the early farms are populated entirely by the pros who know the ins and outs of their jobs, the folks who are able to farm while the average players are still struggling to get their first clears. Once the average players start to get wins, duty finder becomes diluted. At this point, fishing for parties full of pros becomes harder and harder. Once the first few weeks of farming are over, you've got to lower your standards or be prepared for a lot of frustration. Judging by your posts in this thread, you've chosen the frustration route. It's not one I recommend!