seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

[Venjenz]

Speaking to the topic at hand, and with the above in mind why are the dps not equally at fault?

Somehow things got twisted around in MMOs. Back in the day in EQ1, if DPS drew aggro, they got clowned on, abused, kicked, etc. Nobody ever blamed a tank for losing aggro to overzealous DPS because the mechanics were such that aggro building was a raid/group wide concern, and it was everybody's job to make sure it stayed on the tank. Somewhere in like the 3rd/4th xpac for WoW, that all changed. Now, any time an add finds their way to a healer or DPS, or a mob in a pack peels off from the tank...the tank takes all the blame like 90% of the time. Not sure why, but that's how it is now.

Something about long queues makes DPS cranky? Don't really know.

[Kitfox]

Not sure why, but that's how it is now.

Because of game design. If hate is easy to hold, people assume you will, and in FFXIV tanks have abundant hate generation. Don't know about other games.

[Seku]

Snip.

More like FF14 is super easy mode and a tank that wants to keep hate, will have hate vs DPS, It's not the most efficient, but if you're going for that should probably gather a team to consistently run with you.

[Yorumi]

Because of game design. If hate is easy to hold, people assume you will, and in FFXIV tanks have abundant hate generation. Don't know about other games.

This is only true if you're equally geared. As I mentioned in my other post even just missing 2 points of weapon damage can make a significant difference. This is further magnified when a tank doesn't have their tanking stance(pre-30 for war/drk and pre-40 for pld). In my scenario in expert I wouldn't have been able to hold hate without my tanking stance, again that was with losing ONLY 2 weapon damage. I know what I'm doing, and know how to generate a lot of hate, you take a newbie who's still learning, drop them in dungeons without their tanking stance, and not level and item synced, then no they do not have "abundant hate generation".

[SpookyGhost]

I don't lose hate to i275 DPS on my PLD with an i235 weapon who sits in SwO after 3 GCDs in the opener so I've no idea how you're managing to lose hate on WAR with only a 15 ilvl difference. It sounds like you're either doing something wrong or you're being trolled with Smokescreen. Also if all else fails you can just stay in Defiance for a little longer, maybe trade out your Berserk'd FC for a Berserk'd Steel Cyclone if you're really desperate.

[Yorumi]

I don't lose hate to i275 DPS on my PLD with an i235 weapon who sits in SwO after 3 GCDs in the opener so I've no idea how you're managing to lose hate on WAR with only a 15 ilvl difference. It sounds like you're either doing something wrong or you're being trolled with Smokescreen. Also if all else fails you can just stay in Defiance for a little longer, maybe trade out your Berserk'd FC for a Berserk'd Steel Cyclone if you're really desperate.

It doesn't happen quickly. I do an unchained berserk opener and sit in deliverance for the fight. In deliverance with a 260 weapon a 275 dps does outpace my hate generation. It's not a major problem at all, at most I'd only have to jump back into defiance for one hate combo. I was merely using as an example of what a difference a relatively small ilevel makes, especially without tank stance and relating it to newbie tanks who don't know every tiny nuance of the game.

[Venjenz]

More like FF14 is super easy mode and a tank that wants to keep hate, will have hate vs DPS, It's not the most efficient, but if you're going for that should probably gather a team to consistently run with you.

I only ever run content from DF. Never done PF and maybe just a handful of FC premade. I have no issues with holding hate, and I don't really have those "must run dungeon perfectly efficient" OCD worries. I go into DF figuring some slop, and I don't sweat it when slop occurs.

Just saying that what used to be a group dynamic (even in games where tanks had similar aggro generation tools) is now the responsibility of one player. Somewhere along the timeline of MMO history, it shifted, simple as that.

[spelley]

I only ever run content from DF. Never done PF and maybe just a handful of FC premade. I have no issues with holding hate, and I don't really have those "must run dungeon perfectly efficient" OCD worries. I go into DF figuring some slop, and I don't sweat it when slop occurs.

Just saying that what used to be a group dynamic (even in games where tanks had similar aggro generation tools) is now the responsibility of one player. Somewhere along the timeline of MMO history, it shifted, simple as that.

I distinctly remember in the Dark Age of Camelot game that managing aggro was a thing that was (while primarily the concern of the tank), was considered a party-wide responsibility. Then again, if I remember correctly aside from a few things you were kind of expected to be able to eat damage from a mob without instantly keeling over.

[Driavna]

Because of game design. If hate is easy to hold, people assume you will, and in FFXIV tanks have abundant hate generation. Don't know about other games.

The last two games I played, BnS and WoW, totally dumbed down hate generation but in return tanking is more active and timing is way more important.

[Venjenz]

I distinctly remember in the Dark Age of Camelot game that managing aggro was a thing that was (while primarily the concern of the tank), was considered a party-wide responsibility. Then again, if I remember correctly aside from a few things you were kind of expected to be able to eat damage from a mob without instantly keeling over.

What I remember from healing and DPS back in the day was it being my job to not take aggro from the tank. That was the challenge - to DPS max possible without drawing aggro. In EQ1 raiding, when they introduced summoning, the goal was to stay out of the top four on the hate list, iirc, or you got summoned to boss and squashed. I know the vanilla AO raids on stuff like Ian Warr/Ace Camp were very long, drawn out affairs of building tank aggro, and DPS followed really strict rules to not wreck it.

It's just different now, where DPS are expected to go HAM and if the tank loses aggro, the tank sucks. A new paradigm in the genre, as it were.