Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Ama_Hamada]

It's a bit of a derailment, I wanted to point out that this post got no likes. . . so you're not right here?

I mean, you are (if anyone might be confused). I simply wanted to point out how ludicrous the idea of likes = truth/validity of statements are around here.

I agree with the like thing but I really like to point out I refuted your gear thing, did you just happen to forget you can't meld that gear? It is not really an argument for anything. Plus I do not think it was enough on its own anyway, you prob needed do a healer relic with accuracy on it like now (was not in endgame back then so no idea) I do know at 50 though having crafting gear to overmeld was really huge so accuracy could been off set with overmeld vit and acc on the right for healers.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Sorry, I don't think you're being entirely open with your phrasing here. You're not asking for healers to hit 85-90% of their performance potential, you're asking for them to do double duty and hit that 85-90% of dummy DPS performance - WHILE HEALING. That requires the healer to be doing a bit more than just hitting dummy damage. If you want Healers to pull double duty in that regard, then IMHO DPS (including yours) need to be in the upper 90s percent wise vs their dummy performance.

Expecting healers and tanks to contribute damage isn't doubling their duty. A healer who doesn't DPS surrenders a third of their toolkit. Both roles have a significantly simplified "rotation" because they are essentially hybrids. I'll compare my White Mage, Warrior and Dragoon openers. Notice the difference? Admittedly, I left Warrior unfinished because I have to adjust based on the group. I'll usually prep another Eye combo and setup a triple Fell Cleave but sometimes I'll need to build aggro and etc. Point was to illustrate neither healer nor tank openers involve much unless you aim for pure optimization. Dragoon, on the other hand, need to execute properly or its damage plummets. As a dedicated DPS, they must focus and refine because the less damage they do the less likely you'll clear. After all, the fights are tuned around 90% of a DPS' output. That places the bulk of the pressure to actually killing the boss on four players knowing their rotation near perfectly. If I omitted Blood of the Dragoon, well, I'm losing a massive chunk of damage. Would that be okay because "it's hard to manage?" No other job can literally stand still and do nothing except healers nor can DPS ignore a portion of their toolkit and still be considered good.

Demanding 90%+ from your DPS before they can comment about other roles contributing damage is essentially expecting they have a nearly flawless performance while tanks and healers are not held to a comparable standard.

[Naunet]

The problem here is that healers hardly are "buffers".

This suggests to me that the solution comes in a combination of designing fights that don't leave healers with tons of thumb-twiddling downtime, as well as adjusting healer jobs themselves so that they have a variety of tools beyond just "heal button" and "dps button". AST is a good step in the right direction, IMO, with the buff cards. Let's take it further. Give healers more support-related things to do instead of expecting them to dps. I really did not roll a healer to dps 70% of the time.

[JunseiKei]

A11S/A12S minimum ilvl was i255 if you needed to use raid finder during the released period without a full remade. Now imagine how many people today at their current skill level couldn't clear such content at that ilvl? Let alone without healer DPS.

World and even top-server clears require healer DPS, you can even watch Angered or Elysium's Creator Savage clear videos and see players like Ella, Ayesha, Kio, and Vana all taking advantage of healer DPS whenever possible. There isn't a single GCD they are standing around doing nothing. Just that alone is quite a skill gap between good DPS healers and the bottom of the barrel that stand around wasting GCDs, and they are doing this at barely i255. If you notice they cleared A12S just right after second bleed. There are "clear" parties today that can't even skip first or second at i270.

Necessity is not the same as efficiency. You're talking about bonus damage, not absolutely required to clear it. Hence came my example of world first, which I re-address below.

Not might, you will for most of actual raid content. Which is exactly why it's misleading to say "fights are tuned so that you don't need healer DPS to beat them". Because it's simply not true when they're first added to the game and the players don't have access to higher item levels. And world first groups being exceptional players is also exactly my point: when even they need healer DPS to beat that content, it's definitely required - and especially for average teams. And not DPSing as a healer in average group increases the DPS requirements from your DD and tank players more and more towards that world first level - which is unfair, when the healer gets to slack.

You're missing my point. The healers did 10% damage and they did it 2 minutes faster than required. I shouldn't have to explain the math. For healer DPS to actually matter, they would have needed to do over 20% and have to have other raid members making 0 mistakes. It goes without saying when DPS make a mistake, that's a DPS loss.

Again, you're all talking about world firsts. The quote was Yoshida said healer and tank DPS is not required (for tanks, past doing your aggro rotation only) to clear the content. They have a team literally go in and do the fights (invincible 'cause their aim is not to learn the fight, under the average ilevel designed at that time) and make sure the content is clear-able. Again, this was all discussed in Frankfurt or the interview at the convention after (not sure if it was PAX, I don't really keep up with those events).

No matter how you phrase it, it just comes across as "I know better than the director and developer, somehow, without any of the tools or data tables or anything other than a video of a clear with a fight of a vague enrage."

With that, I'm stepping out of the circular argument.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Until 3.2 and Midas, we couldn't meld tome or raid gear. So I understand where and how crafted gear kinda went the extra mile (despite generally being lower than its other endgame alternatives). Beyond that, healers were effectively gimped on being able to perform their secondary role. And I can't stress enough that it's secondary. Even if you're min ilvl, even if you're BiS, and even if you're attempting world/server first.

I am definitely not discouraging healer DPS. I am however all for making the healer's main stat their MAIN stat, and for those who want "complexity" let the content provide the challenge, rather than use of a switch choosing what I'll do/not do well in the moment.

Not going to get into the healer should dps argument anymore as you cant change bad players minds but if they were to remove dpsing from healer they would need to make the healing requirement so much harder to compensate healers now having nothing to do 90% of fights and then you would have the same people who saying that healers should only heal only on forums complaining the job is too hard now because they cant watch netflix in the background anymore.

So its a no win scenario for SE and they should keep it as is but I really wish Yoshi p would come out and say something official on the matter regarding healer dps so we can end this argument once and for all.

A healer not dpsing does not inherently = bad. I say this from the POV of someone who determined (through a LOT of trial and error) that instead of trying to arbitrarily adhere to that idea, staying focused on my primary role predominantly and working in a little - very little - dps where I could, allowing my off-healer to spend 90% of the fight dpsing (she's a SCH, to no real surprise) works, because that's what works for my group and helps us clear. Are we the firsts in anything or setting any records? Probably not. Did we win and get shiny stuff? Hell yes. That's all that matters to me in the end.

As for any official statements: 7 more days.

[technole]

You have to remember world-level progression involves a lot of wiping, and they work on a 12-16 hour schedule. So it's also about what can you do to see more of the fight as soon as you can so the raid can learn immediately how to progress further.

Mistakes happen, even on first-clears, sometimes a lot. You can see some in world clear videos, but how they react or handle the mistakes is also what separates these groups from a typical raid or pug. That's also a raid awareness function, it's not just about healer DPS. I tell people it's easy to watch someone else make mistakes on a video and be a critic, but it can be hard to be your own. You should record or stream yourself and not depend on parsing statistics alone. Watch your own PoV to see things you probably couldn't at the time. Sometimes you'll cringe, you'll find a spot or an area that you can easily improve on whether it's a heal, cooldown, or damage.

I've seen bad healers turn into pretty good ones over time, ones that started with 0 DPS to putting up respectable DPS to clearing a savage tier. It's motivation and having a raid group around them supporting. Anyone can improve if they put the effort in. There are a lot of people who are afraid to hop into harder content, but as any raider knows, they will never improve unless they learn first-hand and wipe.

[Taika]

When it's added into the game, people don't know yet what and how to do it. That's why content is harder than it actually is. You don't need to have your healer DPS to pass the content, but you may be able to fail and get a party wipe without the healer DPS'ing.

I'm pretty sure that world first raid group members are pushing their performance very close to the optimal output when they first clear the raids. It's simply impossible to reach enough party DPS at that item level without healer DPS even when you're doing all that there is to do.

This discussion could also be approached from a different perspective: how many of you have actually yourself or know a group who has beaten the Savage raids (or Coil) with 0 DPS close to when it had just been released (without echo and close to max item level)? Because I've been involved with pretty good (not even close to top 10% but perhaps above average) raid groups, and we've always had trouble with DPS checks despite both healers DPSing throughout Coil and Alexander.

[kikix12]

(...)as well as adjusting healer jobs themselves so that they have a variety of tools beyond just "heal button" and "dps button". AST is a good step in the right direction, IMO, with the buff cards. Let's take it further. Give healers more support-related things to do instead of expecting them to dps. I really did not roll a healer to dps 70% of the time.

That's exactly what I said. Cards are nice, but it's still a buff each 30sec at most. And many make it each 1-3min on average since they only want Balance with a Royal Road effect. Healers lack buffs they could and would want to frequently use. Ones that are not off-global cooldown, so that they would actually compete with offensive spells and heals, and good enough to push the latter off, frequently enough to fill the time in-between heals, with only a short time, if everything goes well, left to DPS.
Off-cooldown stuff with long recast just isn't gonna be relevant in that respect.

[Kosmos992k]

Expecting healers and tanks to contribute damage isn't doubling their duty. A healer who doesn't DPS surrenders a third of their toolkit. Both roles have a significantly simplified "rotation" because they are essentially hybrids. I'll compare my White Mage, Warrior and Dragoon openers. Notice the difference? Admittedly, I left Warrior unfinished because I have to adjust based on the group. I'll usually prep another Eye combo and setup a triple Fell Cleave but sometimes I'll need to build aggro and etc. Point was to illustrate neither healer nor tank openers involve much unless you aim for pure optimization. Dragoon, on the other hand, need to execute properly or its damage plummets. As a dedicated DPS, they must focus and refine because the less damage they do the less likely you'll clear. After all, the fights are tuned around 90% of a DPS' output. That places the bulk of the pressure to actually killing the boss on four players knowing their rotation near perfectly. If I omitted Blood of the Dragoon, well, I'm losing a massive chunk of damage. Would that be okay because "it's hard to manage?" No other job can literally stand still and do nothing except healers nor can DPS ignore a portion of their toolkit and still be considered good.

Demanding 90%+ from your DPS before they can comment about other roles contributing damage is essentially expecting they have a nearly flawless performance while tanks and healers are not held to a comparable standard.

I wasn't suggesting that healers should not contribute, it was the thought hat they should hit 85-90% of their dummy damage potential while healing that irked me. If you want a healer who is not only monitoring player HP but actively healing to also hit up to 90% of their damage potential against a dummy, then how is it unreasonable to expect DPS to be hitting high 90s of their potential? Healer damage potential on a dummy excludes any healing activity.

If you are expecting healers to hit 90% of that potential while at the same time caring for the healing work, how are you not expecting more from healers? Seems to me that's expecting near flawless performance from healers, so DPS need to live up to the same expectations while dodging all the AoEs.

Zojha replied and confirmed i was misunderstanding, so no issues. As I said, I have no problem with healers adding damage, I do so myself when I heal. The degree of expectation and sometimes the degree of performance expected does seem to be out of proportion at times though.

[Naunet]

That's exactly what I said.

Then we agree! It just seemed like the conversation was shifting more toward ways to further cement the healer dps meta than actually adjusting content/jobs to make them better healing experiences.