Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[JunseiKei]

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. Yoshida isn't lying, he's saying they're not considering healer DPS while tuning this content. But he's also saying the calculations are based on higher item level than what players have available when the content is added in the game. So if the players would play following that intention, they would not even try to beat the content when it's released. Hence, it doesn't make any sense to use this as an argument.

Actually, Yoshida pointed out that it was attuned for the current ilevel of the gear. If Sophia EX drops and the current ilevel is i380, the fight is tuned to i380. You might need healer and tank DPS for minimum ilevel, which he even mentioned.

Look for parses from world first groups. I checked the A11S a while ago (it's available on YouTube) and they didn't have what it takes without healer DPS (A9S and A10S might be a different story - haven't checked - but they're exceptions to the general difficulty level anyway). And these are the best groups in the whole world. Not to mention how unfair it would be to actually expect your DPS and tank members to play at that level while saying it's completely fine for healers to leave a vital part of their toolkit out.

As it as been pointed out before, by Yoshida and the other members of the team, world first groups are exceptional players that push to clear content ASAP and are by no means the majority of players. This includes pushing and clearing content before intended gear. You're saying the world first had to have their healers DPS to complete the content without waiting for increased gear (this is where I point to minimum ilevel requirement healer DPS might be required quote from Yoshida). World first parties are also actually learning the fight and there are far more things going on than simply 'how much DPS can you do?'

A11S is a weird fight to judge by as it's a mistake-punishing fight. Mistakes mean tower die quicker and drastically shorten how much time you have to kill the boss before the stage breaks.

Example: World First A12S clear was killed 2 minutes ahead of the enrage timer. (11:36 second kill- enrage is 13:30)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

No, The amount of likes I got versus yours says I'm not being ridciulous. It's the truth.

If you actually healed A12S successfully you'd know that even a pro-tank mitigating the incinerating heat buster, that there is also a cleave either before or afterwards most of the time. That is where my 90% HP and healer being unaware comment comes from. Then they will die to an auto-attack if they don't get healed just in-time after the mitigated hit.

OH So, likes versus lack there of totally determines how valid someone's points are now? On THIS forum?

Well, any possible logical discussion really hit a brick wall here. That's that, I guess.

P.S. I solo healed most of A12S because my SCH off healer was DPSing most of it. I'm well aware how and when to heal my tanks, thanks.

I used A11S as an example... Talking about raid content doesn't get much fresher than that.

Right. And 11S was THAT hard, was it? I had a feeling someone might use Creator Savage - the easiest tier of Alexander - as supporting argument. That's fine, and your point about clearing things at min. ilvl might seem valid, but let's not kid ourselves:

Does your whole party have to work harder to clear something at min. ilvl vs being fairly or max geared? Yes. Is it impossible to do? No. World and server first groups prove that repeatedly. Is everyone and every party on par with world/server first groups? Ha! No.

I'm not discouraging healer DPS. Never was. However ask yourselves, if it was so intended, so necessary, why would SE shoot healers in the foot and remove Accuracy from your gear entirely? That would be counterproductive to the cause, would it not?

[Miste]

Having played plenty of MMOs that do not have the weird healer dps meta... it's not that hard.

My point was that I've seen many healers in this game who don't DPS at all yet still struggle immensely and/or fail to heal content properly so even if I find healing easy there are some people where healing isn't so easy for them and if they made healing more intense well...I would be a bit scared to DF as something other than healer myself...D:

Sort of like when HW came and DPS jobs got more complicated....and you come across DPS doing 10% of the damage they should be doing then you get runs in DF dungeons taking over an hour :x

[Ama_Hamada]

Can we please stop using old, no-longer-applicable examples that the devs themselves admitted were overdone (Yes, Gordias. Let's not beat around the bush) to support counterargument? A major reason Accuracy was removed from healer gear was due to the fact that they designed Heavensward content (again,Gordias apparently being the one unintended exception) with necessary damage calculations to clear as if Healer dps contribution was zero. This was very much stated fact.

I disagree with this over the fact there was some hw 60 dungeons that had accuracy checks that was later removed due to lacking accuracy on gear. oversights are oversights, removing accuracy off gear is not proof for anything. The accuracy stat in this game is flawed in general and should not even exist in this game, using that as an arguments for something? please, invalided arguments are invalided. You also can't meld that gear, def proof of nothing.

Trying to validate "dev team never intended healers to DPS in group content" is a joke and something that is trying to be spread around by people with some grievance of habit (healers should only heal) because people resist change and hate change and hate something being different.

Before words are put in my mouth I wanna repeat my stance, I honestly do not care about healer DPS, it is just there to do, to do something. I would not mind having more biff options and so on, but if the game is changed in such a drastic way, dps better be made a hell lot easier so i am not spending 40 mins in expert because DPS rotations are too hard.

By relative comparison. A healer getting locked into lock can easily wipe the entire raid if their co-healer cannot quickly adjust. A DPS fat-fingering their combo means little in the grand scheme of things.

I don't, hence my phrasing. But reading your tooltips makes it easy enough to figure out. You'll inevitably hear advice from other players. People unaware of their abilities by level 60 are bad players regardless of the job they play. That isn't an excuse. And it's really simple to determine pressing a button that completely gimps your healing capabilities promotes a risk/reward style. If Cleric locks due to the cooldown or it gets accidentally double tapped, people are almost certainly dead.

Then you need to time your casts better. If I mistime Holmgang and die to a buster, I have to correct that mistake next time. It happens. Dust yourself have and go again.

Me no, I do not need time anything better, you can put that advice on people that can't handle cleric though. Even with your post I STILL do not understand why healer makes mistake, we need change cleric stance, tank makes mistake, tank needs git gud. You still did not explain that, did not answer my point. Everyone still wipes if a DPS mishits something and because of that, fails DPS check. So tank messes up = gid gud, DPS mess up = git gud, healer messes up= we need to baby them and make it easier because why now?

[Taika]

You might need healer and tank DPS for minimum ilevel, which he even mentioned.

Not might, you will for most of actual raid content. Which is exactly why it's misleading to say "fights are tuned so that you don't need healer DPS to beat them". Because it's simply not true when they're first added to the game and the players don't have access to higher item levels. And world first groups being exceptional players is also exactly my point: when even they need healer DPS to beat that content, it's definitely required - and especially for average teams. And not DPSing as a healer in average group increases the DPS requirements from your DD and tank players more and more towards that world first level - which is unfair, when the healer gets to slack.

[Zojha]

Sorry, I don't think you're being entirely open with your phrasing here.

You're just misunderstanding it.

I'm saying performance potential, not DPS potential for a reason. For DPS, performance potential largely equals DPS potential. Healers and Tanks have to heal and mitigate/keep aggro, but they can also add DPS beyond that. So their performance potential includes not just their mitigation/healing, but also any DPS they could add after meeting the heal/mitigation checks, not the DPS they could pull on a dummy with no concern to their primary function.

If I was assuming what you think I am assuming, I'd have to give Yoshidas assumption for healers 0% of their performance potential and tanks around 20%, because he doesn't assume "any" DPS for healers and only autoattack + aggro combo for tanks. I didn't, I gave them around 50-60% precisely because I am already accounting for their main job in my guess.

[technole]

Actually, Yoshida pointed out that it was attuned for the current ilevel of the gear. If Sophia EX drops and the current ilevel is i380, the fight is tuned to i380. You might need healer and tank DPS for minimum ilevel, which he even mentioned.

A11S/A12S minimum ilvl was i255 if you needed to use raid finder during the released period without a full remade. Now imagine how many people today at their current skill level couldn't clear such content at that ilvl? Let alone without healer DPS.

World and even top-server clears require healer DPS, you can even watch Angered or Elysium's Creator Savage clear videos and see players like Ella, Ayesha, Kio, and Vana all taking advantage of healer DPS whenever possible. There isn't a single GCD they are standing around doing nothing. Just that alone is quite a skill gap between good DPS healers and the bottom of the barrel that stand around wasting GCDs, and they are doing this at barely i255. If you notice they cleared A12S just right after second bleed. There are "clear" parties today that can't even skip first or second at i270.

[kikix12]

Can we please stop using this misleading quote as an argument? When the content is in fact literally impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's added in the game, then the content does require healer DPS. It doesn't matter who says what and what kind of calculations have been made and when, when that is the fact.

When it's added into the game, people don't know yet what and how to do it. That's why content is harder than it actually is. You don't need to have your healer DPS to pass the content, but you may be able to fail and get a party wipe without the healer DPS'ing. Neither is mutually exclusive, because there are more aspects to clearing content than just DPS and HPS. Vault is example of that. People may clear it time and again, then they'll get dropped into a party that is what it is...and they won't be able to do it. Why?! Not because of stats. Previous parties may have had worse gear. But because knowing what to do and when is important. Healer DPS'ing may make it easier by shortening the difficult phases and may make the difference between a failure and a success, yes. But that means only that the DPS are failing in THEIR job, for lack of knowledge or skills. Or because they have crap gear that boosts their item level without actually boosting their stats, like caster accessories on a tank...

In WildStar, I'm generally always busy on my healers keeping up buffs, prepping for damage, adjusting positioning for better heals. (...)
Once again I assert that we should not be looking for ways to cement the "healer dps" meta even further, but rather encourage SE to design content that asks healers to do more healing/buffing.

The problem here is that healers hardly are "buffers". White mage have only three buffs that do not heal (one of which is just a time-saving version of the other, hence no need to count Stoneskin II dropping it to two). But Protect is "cast and forget"...until someone dies...and Stoneskin is a buff between fights. In a fight, healing is cheaper and is going to restore more HP than Stoneskin will substitute. For Scholars, it's Sacred Soil (from which players frequently run away and which is restricted by aetherflow), Eye for an Eye...which Summoners have as well...Galvanize which is always bound to healing spells so doesn't even count...and pet buffs. Sure, one pet have two buffs and the other have one, but they they can't exactly fill any downtime...nor are they something you do on the downtime since you can use them mid-cast.

If healers had actual buffs that have short durations, low-to-no recast, and low enough MP costs to actually be cast one after another, I'm pretty sure they would be used instead of DPS. 10% decrease in damage received by party member for 10sec? Cool. 20% increase in damage by party member for 10sec with 10sec cooldown?! Good as well. Heck, there are some games where healers can restore more than just HP, but also MP (their own as well as others, but only others would be enough as well) or stamina (well, TP in this game).

Making this game have more threatening, Esuna'ble debuffs would be good too. Most of the pesky debuffs cannot be healed (Toad, Petrification, various Vulnerabilities etc.), while many of those that can, are irrelevant (many poisons). There are few that are good to remove (Paralyze, Doom, Slow etc.), but they obviously can't be constantly used by every enemy the party comes across...

Having played plenty of MMOs that do not have the weird healer dps meta... it's not that hard.

To be fair, in many of those games, healers are plain useless OUTSIDE of their healing/buffs. And that means that they are either leveled in a party, or not at all, and they have a horrid time doing anything, even content they severely outlevel, without someone helping them. It is not always the case, but frequently. Then there are games where, like here, healers often attack and healing time competes with that.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

A11S/A12S minimum ilvl was i255 if you needed to use raid finder during the released period without a full remade. Now imagine how many people today at their current skill level couldn't clear such content at that ilvl? Let alone without healer DPS.

World and even top-server clears require healer DPS, you can even watch Angered or Elysium's Creator Savage clear videos and see players like Ella, Ayesha, Kio, and Vana all taking advantage of healer DPS whenever possible. There isn't a single GCD they are standing around doing nothing. Just that alone is quite a skill gap between good DPS healers and the bottom of the barrel that stand around wasting GCDs, and they are doing this at barely i255. If you notice they cleared A12S just right after second bleed. There are "clear" parties today that can't even skip first or second at i270.

It's a bit of a derailment, I wanted to point out that this post got no likes. . . so you're not right here?

I mean, you are (if anyone might be confused). I simply wanted to point out how ludicrous the idea of likes = truth/validity of statements are around here.

[Rita1989]

Not going to get into the healer should dps argument anymore as you cant change bad players minds but if they were to remove dpsing from healer they would need to make the healing requirement so much harder to compensate healers now having nothing to do 90% of fights and then you would have the same people who saying that healers should only heal only on forums complaining the job is too hard now because they cant watch netflix in the background anymore.

So its a no win scenario for SE and they should keep it as is but I really wish Yoshi p would come out and say something official on the matter regarding healer dps so we can end this argument once and for all.