Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Ama_Hamada]

1) Tanks are overgeared for current endgame dungeons making them take considerably less damage. It's a much different story when you were leveling in HW and the tanks weren't overgeared for the content you were doing. Do you remember the vault leveling up as a healer? I sure do. That last fight was quite demanding on healers.

I never leveled off the vault but yesterday I did enter one something that was close. (I think?) we had a newish tank and 2 dps (one was at level while the other didn't do any job quests past 50) So there was one group where I was talking to say something when monsters where nearly dead, thought I had enough room to talk (that the group would die before anyone else) and sure enough the tank died and .. yeah.. stopped talking and healed till the monsters finish off dieing (so yeah i know it was my fault but I am honestly not used to DPS that low, and yes I did make that comment in the pt)

The final boss was ruff as heck O_o I had mp problems and I ended up soloing 3 of those fire orbs at the second attempt. The first wipe was from people taking too much damage and I just ran out of stacks to heal it all up. Again at the end of second attempt I was out of mp, and nearly wipe again over it....

I do not think it is a good idea to have situations (i/e make things more healer demanding) since that means 3 others need to be on top of the game more. Tank under geared? you wipe, over and over, dps do not do enough damage? you run out of mp over and over. So you need to look at what this game appeals to and that is what the forums call "lowest common denominator" If you want to make things more healing intensive, the content will be too hard for large amount of the playerbase, so there needs to be something else.

In the end though, removing/lessin healer DPS or making fights more heal intensive would most likely drive more people to quit then it brings in, so this not really a solution.

So to those that say SE never intended healers to DPS in group content because it was not a factor in calculations is a BS argument. They did a baseline to allow wiggle room since people are not robots. If they factored in healing DPS, it would be too hard and people will not be able to do the content.

5) Healers can cast other things besides cure. Stoneskin comes to mind. I use stoneskin quite often especially on the second boss of Sohm Al Hard mode when the tank gets hit with infirmary. The problem is, WHM especially doesn't *HAVE* anything besides cures, stoneskin, and regen. That's a class/job design flaw. There should be other things that healers can do/cast besides DPS spells, IMHO.

Too much mp/cast time, just heal over to allow dps more.

[ErryK]

the tank gets hit with infirmary

I would assume if your tank is being hit by a clinic, he'd be healed, rather than damaged.

[Zojha]

I would assume if your tank is being hit by a clinic, he'd be healed, rather than damaged.

I'm pretty sure being hit by any sort of building would be painful.

[ErryK]

I'm pretty sure being hit by any sort of building would be painful.

[Ama_Hamada]

There may be times you did get on my bad side with some of your posts, but even I have to admit it was rather funny.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

They did that with Gordias Savage. That didn't work AT ALL, and Yoshi admitted that the difficulty was too much there due to some jobs getting barred from running those raids.
The issue with healing in this game is that it's a player-created circumstance further promoted by content like Gordias Savage being developed to require healers to do the job of a DPS on top of the primary task of their chosen role. The goal for healing difficulty should realistically be enough so that healers have breathing room to do damage not because they have to, but because they want to, whether it be to relieve boredom or to gain enough credibility to tell that lazy DPS to git gud.

As someone who has played both, I can say from personal experience that tanks have gotten far more than enough love, and devs should start giving some to the healers that put up with emphatically incompetent DPS that wonder why the healer isn't doing enough damage when that healer can barely keep up that paperweight of a tank who insists on pulling everything and then hiding behind a corner. /rant

Gordias Savage is going a step too far in the other direction. You can have challenging content without it being absurdly difficult. I specifically cited one that you completely ignored (Weeping City). Ironically, it's Creator that influenced the current healer DPS meta more than Gordias ever did because you simply have too much downtime. With Gordias, yes healer DPS was a requirement but the sheer amount of damage severely restricted what your healers could reasonably put out. Midas was similar, albeit more mechanically intensive. Those were actual "breathing moments." Creator, on the other hand, has windows-- large portions of the fight where there is literally nothing happening. With proper cooldown usage from the tanks, you barely have to touch them in A12S barring the few healer checks. That contributes far more significantly to the "healers should be DPSing" philosophy. I won't link any videos as to avoid names but if you watch POVs between healers who DPS and those who barely touch Cleric, you'll noticeable almost immediately just how frequent they have nothing to do.

Having a moron for a tank doesn't excuse healers not DPSing. You adjust based on the groups you have. I've had to slow down DPSing whenever I heal Dun Scaith because people won't dodge easily avoidable mechanics. That doesn't mean I absurdly give up DPSing. I merely adjust to the circumstances. Any good player should, regardless of the role they play.

Healer DPS is a necessary part for their solo experience doing levequests and the like. That was its intended purpose. It is the community that is taking a bonus of a healer that is performing beyond what the game demands of him and setting that as "normal" that is the problem here. Yoshida has said that DPS are expected to perform at approximately 90% of maximum, so why is it that healers and tanks are constantly expected to perform at over 100% of what the devs have balanced the content for?

If you aren't DPSing, you aren't performing at 100%, let alone above it. Without stepping into Cleric, healers lose a third of their toolkit. A tank who remains in tank stance loses a significant amount of DPS. The quote your reference implied tanks should do nothing more than their aggro combo. I sincerely doubt Yoshi intended it that way nor would the devs provide healers with the sheer damage potential if they were meant to contribute whenever possible. Bear in mind, higher damage is a form of mitigation itself. You can avoid mechanics entirely if you power through them. Not to mention, what's dead can't deal damage.

I don't think anyone will argue that the current content is quite easy and not demanding enough on healers who just heal. But it should be up to the devs to give the healers more to do or more things to do in that time, it shouldn't be something demanded/enforced by the players... if that makes sense. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Why not? Statics are entirely player created. People are entitled to set whatever parameters they fancy as are you entitled not to join their groups. If you aren't willing or simply too nervous to stance dance don't join a static where the expectations are healers must being DPSing.

[Reiryuu]

If you aren't DPSing, you aren't performing at 100%, let alone above it. Without stepping into Cleric, healers lose a third of their toolkit.

Again, I am strictly speaking of what the content is balanced around as the devs intend it to be done.

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29

According to Yoshida, Healer DPS is icing on the cake. Again, as I have said before. Is the bar too low? Yes. But that doesn't mean that the community should raise the bar to an unreasonably high level either and some people do. Just because you and your friends can clear Dungeon X in 5 minutes flat, doesn't mean every random group you meet in DF should be held to that standard.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Again, I am strictly speaking of what the content is balanced around as the devs intend it to be done.


Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29

According to Yoshida, Healer DPS is icing on the cake. Again, as I have said before. Is the bar too low? Yes. But that doesn't mean that the community should raise the bar to an unreasonably high level either.

It's only unreasonable if it isn't achievable. We're simply taking advantage of the current systems and optimizing, which many players will do regardless of them genre or even game. Why would I tank A12S in Defiance when I'm perfectly capable of surviving every single mechanic in Deliverance while doubling not only my own output but my co-tank's, assuming they opt to drop tank stance too? It's up to the developers to change mechanics if they don't like how the playerbase has responded. As I said, if you prefer playing safe, by all means, go right ahead. There are plenty of people who share that opinion. But other players are allowed to set their own standards for who they recruit. If they want more optimal performance, don't join their group.

As for calculations, it makes little sense to have fights scaled where the actual DPS can't reach their respective checks even at optimal performance. It has nothing to do with whether healers should or shouldn't DPS. Damage requirements and better overall raid contribution are not the same thing.

[Ama_Hamada]

Again, I am strictly speaking of what the content is balanced around as the devs intend it to be done.
Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29

According to Yoshida, Healer DPS is icing on the cake. Again, as I have said before. Is the bar too low? Yes. But that doesn't mean that the community should raise the bar to an unreasonably high level either and some people do. Just because you and your friends can clear Dungeon X in 5 minutes flat, doesn't mean every random group you meet in DF should be held to that standard.

This really needs to stop, it is not "intended" to be done in that way:

So to those that say SE never intended healers to DPS in group content because it was not a factor in calculations is a BS argument. They did a baseline to allow wiggle room since people are not robots. If they factored in healing DPS, it would be too hard and people will not be able to do the content.

Healers where always "intended" to help DPS, the problem is drawing a baseline. If they included healer dps in calculations, content WOULD BE TOO HARD!!!!! for most groups. Reason for this comes from how to calculate that? because if you are assuming more opportunity for healer to DPS then what most players are able to do, because of DPS getting hit by aoe, tanks not using cooldown properly, so on, then content will not be cleared if you are expecting people to be perfect.

[Zojha]

According to Yoshida, Healer DPS is icing on the cake.

And this is where the issue lies: The double standard starts at the design level already.

What Yoshida is doing there is to expect DPS to pull 85-90% of their dummy performance potential in a live fight, while at the same time, asking healers and tanks to only pull 50-60% of their performance potential (conservative number).

This gap is what people ask healers and tanks to fill when they ask them to DPS as well. If the devs would ask healers and tanks to pull 85-90% of their theoretical performance potential as well, like they do for DPS, healer and tank DPS would be mandatory as per devs. They don't, they only consider a fraction of the performance potential for tanks and healers. Thus, when players ask tanks and healers to DPS, what they seek is to rectify the double standard on the design level.

It would be a lot better if the devs would solve that mess, rather than players. But they don't even acknowledge the issue, so it's not gonna happen anytime soon.