Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Taika]

SE has stated that they do not factor in healer DPS when tuning the content for the ilevel they use in development. This is not the same ilevel as the minimum ilevel.

Yes I'm aware of this and this was actually what I was referring to: that if you would expect players to play following this announced developer intention, the players would not actually be able to beat the content when it's first released (before gaining more tomestone gear). Because of this, it's ridiculous to use this as an argument against healer DPS, because pretty much no one is actually playing according to these developer intentions. It would actually be interesting to see how long it would take for groups that aren't the world's best to actually beat any content without healer DPS.

They don't do this because this allows the world-firsters to tackle the content at below the ilevel they use in development and manage to squeak out a clear by squeezing out every extra bit they can, like healer dps. If they actually included healer dps in tuning, then the content would not be able to be cleared until groups had reached the ilevel that the developers used to tune the content.

This is not a necessary correlation, though: they might as well tune the content in the way that it's beatable by previous tier's raid gear (or new tier's HQ melded crafted gear) including healer and tank DPS when pushed to absolute maximum. The result would be pretty much the same.

It's not just a correlation. There's a post floating around these forums where the developers have said how they calculate necessary dps in raids and they stated that if they included healer dps into the mix, then no one would be able to clear the content until they reached the ilevel that was used in development.

Again, I know this. I have read the post. But what the developers said doesn't matter, because 1. the calculations might as well be based on how the players actually play and it wouldn't make a difference, and 2. because no one actually plays following this "developer intention". There's no raid group that says "yeah we could beat this right now but the developers meant us to beat this without healer DPS 20 item levels higher so let's wait". It's a fact they've said this, but it doesn't affect this discussion in any way, since it's not relevant to how the game is actually played.

[Saito_S]

I do want to note that from what I've seen in regards to the whole 'don't remove Cleric Stance because it separates the best players from the baddies' argument, the vast majority of raid healers I've seen are in favor of removing Cleric Stance anyway, at least in Sargatanas. There are people willing to take a hit to their, quite frankly, useless pride if it meant the betterment of the community as a whole.

Seems to me it's more been about wanting to keep an element of risk/reward, of having to analyze the situation and decide when you should enter CS. As in, to keep the healing classes fun and interesting to play. Don't really think that Cleric's Stance as a tool for good healers to lord it over bad ones is very important to many people.

[TaleraRistain]

It's not just a correlation. There's a post floating around these forums where the developers have said how they calculate necessary dps in raids and they stated that if they included healer dps into the mix, then no one would be able to clear the content until they reached the ilevel that was used in development.

[Ama_Hamada]

There is an issue here, let me explain what implied meanings are. It should be obvious no one is going to enter anything as a healer and never heal. I complained about co healers before in say dun, making me do all the raises, sitting on 8000+ mp while I am using all my CDs, even Dissipation for mp, have 1-2k constantly and being told I am rude for asking help with raises. We know, healing comes first, the reason DPS healing is the only thing talked about because people want that aspect changed. Then you come in sounding like we shouldn't care about DPS at all, that is where "you are literally telling how people to play" and forcing a change to the game some may not like, and that is to have so much incoming damage consistently there is no room to DPS as a healer.

A good healer, or good player on any job uses all their tools to maximize their performance. This means for a healer means spending as little time as you possibly can with healing as you DPS so speed things up, and in the end, less healing to do. There is a reason "The best defense is a good offense" line exists and can apply with this.

You know what? And what confuses me to no end why I am attacked for talking about tank stances? Guess who else that kind of change effects? If you are consistently being barraged with damage that is difficult to heal, well tank stance dancing also goes out the window. So you are going to be stuck in perma tank stance with constant healing, let me ask you, how many people will be truly happy about that?

You made it sound it is wrong to care about your DPS as a healer, you should care about both, and care about healing more and keeping people up, but I did get offended when you first sounded like we shouldn't care about how much DPS we do.

What a tank does to migrate damage or how much damage a tank absorbs directly effects how much time a healer has to dps, insulting me for drawing that link is laughable. So when people are calling for a change with cleric stance I will say hold it, what about tanks how is cleric "complex" and not tank stances? Has nothing to do with "Ill show them" or whatever attack people want to throw at me, it is a concern for BALANCE! I do not want to be a heal bot so tanks can stop caring over using their tools.

[loreleidiangelo]

And here is a question I pose for the devs... I feel like healing should honestly be more intensive. Healers should be healing. DPSing is great when you have time but why isn't a majority of our time actually spent healing? Why do I have so much down time to DPS? It's mind boggling to me.

This has always been my biggest concern. I'd love for the devs to remove Cleric, close the "skill gap" (lmao) between DPSing healers and non-DPSing ones by removing that godawful button and letting inexperienced healers work in their DPS organically, AND work on bumping the skill FLOOR of general healing overall, so that players gradually get accustomed to spending most of their globals on healing and maybe a sparing few on DPS. I don't really see why that's so difficult; other MMOs hold to this approach pretty seamlessly. Yes, I imagine content like expert might still see us spamming Holies or falling asleep mashing our Embrace macros, but there's really no reason that raids and EX primals at least can't require the constant dedicated throughput of two reasonably skilled healers (with maybe minimal time to DPS on tight phase checks or priority adds).

I shouldn't have to a.) solo heal content, or b.) rely on pugs being abysmally bad in things like Weeping City/Dun Scaith in order to get a fulfilling, engaging healing experience. Just my two cents.

[Sebazy]

what about tanks how is cleric "complex" and not tank stances?

The thing here is that tank stances are a similar concept to Cleric at their most basic level, but they are both much more subtle in how they work vs CS and also an utterly necessary evil unlike CS.

The two main things to consider here:

Being in Cleric shuts down the bulk of a healer's HPS throughput potential, currently only prior regens, benediction and the fairy are exempt. By comparison, being in a DPS stance doesn't currently prevent a tank from tanking, it's just a base mitigation hit. Agro generation is generally easy enough to the extent that that's not a pressing issue on bosses.

(I'm actually inclined to suggest that SE could consider going back to allowing Lustrate to ignore CS whilst also doing the same for Tetra and ED.)

Secondly, as mentioned a page or so back, regardless of the DPS/mitigation deal, it's absolutely required given the 2/2/4 setup this game enforces. Without a means to control their agro to some extent, tanks would either need better low agro combos or face having to back off and stop attacking, nobody wants that.

I think I've said it before, but overall I'd be happy to see the back of CS, if it goes a small way to closing the skill gap between the top and bottom of the player base then it's a worthwhile change. Ditching tank stances would cause a lot more problems than it'd solve though =(

[Youkulm]

I shouldn't have to a.) solo heal content, or b.) rely on pugs being abysmally bad in things like Weeping City/Dun Scaith in order to get a fulfilling, engaging healing experience. Just my two cents.

+1 too true

[The_Last_Dragoon]

I'm sure that Cleric Stance will get an overhaul simply because the way how new jobs are added and what crossover abilities are available to them is changing, but I don't think they're going to make it "easier" for healers to dps in duties. The main reason I think is that then it would have to be something that's not only socially acceptable, but seen as an actual requirement of the role and have it's damage actually calculated in duty balances when they design them. Essentially, it would tighten the leeway you have to make mistakes and probably make the Savage Duty finder a living nightmare.

[Nyxn607]

More butt hurt over your character appearance than your comment tbh. Should I quit now?

Since your comment has nothing to do with this post, I will leave that choice up to you

[Naunet]

The main reason I think is that then it would have to be something that's not only socially acceptable, but seen as an actual requirement of the role and have it's damage actually calculated in duty balances when they design them.

No. They just have to make encounters that require healing.