Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[ErryK]

I would personally enjoy if the developers made the content in such a way to make it just hard enough that healer's wouldn't be able to DPS at all. I am rather annoyed with all of healer dps/cleric stance threads at this point.

In my personal opinion, if you don't like how someone else plays, stop playing MMO's. Not everyone is going to play the way YOU want them to. YOU do not own/control the MMO. In contrast, if you are going to get butt hurt any time someone suggests another way to go about playing your class, again you should stop playing MMO's.

Now I will sit back and watch people get butt hurt over this comment.
/grabs popcorn.

Telling people to not play MMOs because of a difference in playstyle! Wish I'd thought of that first!

[Alynn]

I would personally enjoy if the developers made the content in such a way to make it just hard enough that healer's wouldn't be able to DPS at all. I am rather annoyed with all of healer dps/cleric stance threads at this point.

In my personal opinion, if you don't like how someone else plays, stop playing MMO's. Not everyone is going to play the way YOU want them to. YOU do not own/control the MMO. In contrast, if you are going to get butt hurt any time someone suggests another way to go about playing your class, again you should stop playing MMO's.

Now I will sit back and watch people get butt hurt over this comment.
/grabs popcorn.

More butt hurt over your character appearance than your comment tbh. Should I quit now?

[Taika]

If you're more focused on DPS than healing, I don't believe you should be playing a healer- you should be playing a DPS. I don't want you guys to stop DPSing, I'm cool with it happening, but when when every healer arguement is whining over their DPS and how they want more and they hope they get holyga for the next expansion instead of an actual valuable toolkit skill, it makes me think those folks need to take a step back and look at the role they're queuing for


I'm not asking for half your toolkit to be gone. That would be stupid. I'm saying that the class who's role is healer shouldn't be so focused and obsessed with DPS- half their toolkit shouldn't BE DPS skills in the first place. Do your job first, ya damn layabout. And when you want more skills, maybe think of ways to make healing more fun instead of "Give me more DPS". You're not a DPS. Want more, go play a DPS. Need one that is a hybrid but has big numbers that you want? Go play summoner.

How is Summoner a hybrid? It's a pure DPS job outside of a few selected support abilities every single other DPS job has as well.

Other than that, being a healer in this game means healing and doing DPS. That's their job (and their job isn't defined by their role name but in fact their abilities and play style and what they're capable of, just like BRD and MCH aren't just DPS but support as well). If they're only doing one of them (when there's use for the other), they're not doing their job. In fact the less they're able to focus on healing (while still keeping everyone alive) and the more they can focus on DPS, the better they are playing. The more they're supporting their party. That's how this game is designed.

I'm not interested in being only a healer. I'm not interested in being only a DPS either. I want to be both and in this game I can (just like I could in FFXI as a healer as well, only to a lesser extent). You can say people like me shouldn't be playing these jobs as much as you want, but in fact I'm pretty good at them, enjoy playing them and the people I play with enjoy having me in their team, so that's all that I need.

And I'll say it again, you clearly don't understand how little healing is actually required in the bulk of content in this game. I suspect most of the people who are objecting to healer DPS being removed are of that mindset because frankly, there's very little else to do even as an AST.

Yes, I too wonder if you even have any experience of actually playing a healer in this game in the first place? Or are you just here to tell others how you imagine they should (not) be playing their main role?

[Rysir]

Healers should be able to deal damage not only because solo content but also because healing is so overpowered currently and thus all the downtime but healers should not have their cake and eat it too.

If you keep giving healers more and more DPS options then they start stepping on the toes of actual DPS classes or even challenge them outright which is not the way it should be cuz then it would just be a healer+ tank meta only since why bring a DPS when you can bring a healer who can tear things up as well as heal and revive?

Healers already have god tier healing + decent DPS power, you cant have them be gods of damage and healing. Improve the jobs with making healing more interesting rather than band aid it with "MOAR DPS"

[Mycow8me]

Why are people like ama using tanks as a comparison to healers clerics stance (probably cause I said I didn't care about the conversation anymore unless warrior was brought up, your a piece of work ama). Do you even realize how often a tank has to stance dance in a fight in comparison? There are fights where the Off tank is literally only useful for 1 mechanic (the rest is downtime) and the whole rest of the fight they are a DPS. The main tank can spend literally almost the whole fight in defiance/shield oath/grit while the offtank can spend almost the whole fight in deliverance/swordoath/nongrit. A very adept healer will have to switch numerous amounts of times, its not even about being hard at that point, its more about an annoyance, especially just to recast DoTs every time they go down if you want to optimize dmg. This comparison doesn't work, so don't even try it. A warriors entire toolkit is self heals and DPS which means they should be DPSing with no other alternative like a healer has which its main role is to heal. They could add more off tank mechanics but thats another debate for another thread.

Also if you lower tank DPS (which is fine with me) you may as well just lower healer dps instead since they don't have nearly as much downtime which defeats your own damn argument. Are you the one trolling now?

[Zojha]

If you keep giving healers more and more DPS options then they start stepping on the toes of actual DPS classes or even challenge them outright which is not the way it should be cuz then it would just be a healer+ tank meta only since why bring a DPS when you can bring a healer who can tear things up as well as heal and revive?

About that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kFN0bnXBQ

There's also a fun video of solo-tank/solo-heal with 6 DPS (and that one didn't even have Echo *gulp*). I keep being surprised just "how" powerful tanks and healers in this game actually are - it really makes you feel inadequate as DPS.

[Taika]

Why are people like ama using tanks as a comparison to healers clerics stance (probably cause I said I didn't care about the conversation anymore unless warrior was brought up, your a piece of work ama). Do you even realize how often a tank has to stance dance in a fight in comparison? There are fights where the Off tank is literally only useful for 1 mechanic (the rest is downtime) and the whole rest of the fight they are a DPS. The main tank can spend literally almost the whole fight in defiance/shield oath/grit while the offtank can spend almost the whole fight in deliverance/swordoath/nongrit.

If we're talking about content that matters, off tank can generally stay a whole fight in DPS stance, yes, but main tank is probably switching around a lot (or should be, if they're optimising their play), swapping to tank stance for heavy damage and when they need to boost their enmity while staying as much as possible in DPS stance. In that way it's very similar to healer play. And just like healers, in content that doesn't really matter, the tank is likely spending majority of their time in DPS stance.

[Mycow8me]

If we're talking about content that matters, off tank can generally stay a whole fight in DPS stance, yes, but main tank is probably switching around a lot (or should be, if they're optimising their play), swapping to tank stance for heavy damage and when they need to boost their enmity while staying as much as possible in DPS stance. In that way it's very similar to healer play. And just like healers, in content that doesn't really matter, the tank is likely spending majority of their time in DPS stance.

Except you cant on warrior because it has a 10 second coooldown. The other 2 classes are 2.5 cooldowns. They do not switch nearly as much as you are trying to imply even in relevant content (All Tanks, not just warriors).

[Mycow8me]

I just checked that one of our latest A11S runs (which was back in January ) our PLD main tank switched 13 times in 7.5 minute fight. I wouldn't call that staying in tank stance for almost the whole fight.

I would hope so now that its overgeared and allowable. Did you by chance check how often a healer switched or are we just pulling numbers out of our ass?

[Taika]

Except you cant on warrior because it has a 10 second coooldown. The other 2 classes are 2.5 cooldowns. They do not switch nearly as much as you are trying to imply even in relevant content (All Tanks, not just warriors).

I just checked that on one of our latest A11S runs (which was back in January so pre-echo and all that jazz) our PLD main tank switched 13 times in 7.5 minute fight. I wouldn't call that staying in tank stance for almost the whole fight. And I changed to Cleric Stance 17 times, our AST did 19 times. There's a difference but not as huge as you seemed to imply.

(Reposted because you posted again before my edit so I didn't have to spam with double post.)

Look you can deny it all you want, healer switching is much more common than a tank switching.

I'm not "denying" anything, I'm posting numbers to prove my point. Do you have numbers that show the opposite? Of course the higher a person ranks, the less they're switching because they're spending more time in Cleric / DPS stance, so it's hard to compare from randoms. That's why I used our own standard run as an example.

Edit: Very easy to check if the numbers are made up or not by just going to logs and check: all our numbers with that group are public. Don't dare to link here because I'm not sure if it's allowed.

Edit: You need to undestand something Taika. When a Maintank lowers their tank stance, they are directly causing healers to heal more thus lowering their DPS capability in the process anyway. If the tank switches to dps stance for some of the fight (except DPS clock mechanics) healers can see less switching anyway. Tank DPS is more important than healer dps cause they are consistently dpsing even in tank stance just to hold hate and their dps is also figured into the bosses calculations. I still believe this comparison does not work even if you are trying to make it seem so.

Thank you for explaining, I'm so clueless about this game's mechanics and have no experience whatsoever. Joking aside, at least in our group, where the numbers I posted are from, our main tank switching to DPS stance does not cause us to DPS significantly less. We actually try these things and discuss them and see if the stance switch would be a DPS loss or not.

What actually matters is the overall DPS from the group: tank DPS is not any more valuable than healer DPS in itself (since tank only needs certain amount of enmity), and each group should make these decisions based on what grants them the highest party DPS in the most convenient way. But this is beside the discussion which was if healers and tanks are switching stances in comparable numbers. To which the answer is: depends on the fight and the healer / tank role. In some fights at least they obviously are.