Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Shurrikhan]

You mean in terms of the DPS healer? Pretty much what Atlaworks said below your post. If you've played WoW, it'd be akin to Discipline Priest during various points of the game. I think some other MMORPGs sport this style too... maybe Rift or Allods? I can't remember.

Basically, you do DPS as you normally would, but the game prioritizes who gets healed through the Smart Healing system by a percentage of damage done. Usually this means healing the person with lowest HP. On some occasions, this works with AoE spells as well, where it'll do damage AND heal people in radius. Obviously, as a healer, you'll want some manual spells to heal with too (and AoE heals), so those are usually available as well, though your options may not be as versatile or powerful as the more traditional healer. Perhaps either extremely weak or no Regen effects, for example.

Disc Priests were the only example I readily had in mind by which to envision it, but in practice Legion Disc has always been rather... dull, to me (compared to, say, an Elemental Shaman or Mistweaver Monk in less healing-intensive encounters), so I was wondering if there were any other widely known examples out there. What were the Rift DPS healers like, for instance? Also, would this Smart Healing system end up something that remains unique to these DPS healers or likely spread throughout revamps to all of them, but with these DPS healers simply benefiting most from that system and others like it?

I'll try to work out some more spitball concepts when I've time again. I'd like to know if they can at all fit in with your envisioned goal.

[Belhi]

I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

The issue is the healing in this game is dull. The solution to that would be to nerf the potency of the healing in this game and adjust fight mechanics to both accommodate that. Simply put, as the game currently functions a healer that can only heal would spend a massive amount of time just doing nothing which is extremely boring. Imagine a scenario where you could only use one dps skill every 10 seconds or so. That would be pretty much what it would be like to heal anything minus any sense of progression since healing is more about sustaining the norm rather than working towards a goal.

I don't see them fixing the fundamental issues with the healing mechanics which has lead to healers focusing so much on dps. As it is I am pretty content with the additional challenge of knowing how to time my stance dancing to do dps without putting my healing at risk. The DPS I bring isn't necessary. They don't balance the fight around it. If a healer doesn't dps that doesn't make anything take longer than intended unless your other roles are underperforming. But having the option to use cleric stance to dps adds a risk reward aspect to the role that can feel rewarding to master.

The thing is that what would be required to make healing more fun would be inherently unpopular. No one likes getting nerfed, particularly since they would be across the board nerfs and all healers would feel seriously gimped from what they are used to, but also there are many who have come to like the existing model. Frankly the only option I see for them going forward is pretty much to build of what they have already done but include the aspect cleric stance brings where it creates some level of skill/risk in dpsing effectively.

[Reiryuu]

You mean in terms of the DPS healer? Pretty much what Atlaworks said below your post. If you've played WoW, it'd be akin to Discipline Priest during various points of the game. I think some other MMORPGs sport this style too... maybe Rift or Allods? I can't remember.

I really liked the Chloromancer in RIFT in terms of a DPS healer. You also have the Runemaster type mechanic/idea from LOTR:O

[Welsper59]

Disc Priests were the only example I readily had in mind by which to envision it, but in practice Legion Disc has always been rather... dull, to me (compared to, say, an Elemental Shaman or Mistweaver Monk in less healing-intensive encounters), so I was wondering if there were any other widely known examples out there. What were the Rift DPS healers like, for instance? Also, would this Smart Healing system end up something that remains unique to these DPS healers or likely spread throughout revamps to all of them, but with these DPS healers simply benefiting most from that system and others like it?

I'll try to work out some more spitball concepts when I've time again. I'd like to know if they can at all fit in with your envisioned goal.

Disc has changed so much and so damn often in WoW, that I daresay it's among the most unstable classes/specs in the game in terms of how-to-play and lifespan lol. I don't remember Rift DPS healing very much, as I might be confusing it for a tank class that was basically Unholy DK's in WoW, except those DoTs healed only you as they did damage. Allods, however, was a melee healer, where similar to Disc Priest before (not sure about now, since I haven't done anything with the class), you'd do an action that did a stacking debuff on the target (or it applied a buff on yourself), and use a skill/spell that used up that debuff to heal your party.

Honestly, I'd just think of it as something unique to that specific job. Maybe as a stepping stone for future healers (or mechanics for other roles). It'd essentially be the "EZ Mode" healer, the one that based on this topic, would be the one to bring a larger crowd to the role. A lot of people seem to be hailing the Cleric Stance as a "fun" mechanic that offers a bit of challenge they enjoy. I think while that's absolutely true for some, for others it's merely an e-peen statement. This DPS healer would basically be proof of that, should any Cleric Stance advocates decide to switch over (assuming no real differences in DPS output or exceptionally unique style to do your DPS). For those folks, it's a "whatever" situation, but I don't like the idea of taking away Cleric Stance from those that truly do enjoy it.

I don't really have an envisioned goal of sorts that strays far from certain eras of Disc Priest lol. It's a pretty simple concept that is open to criticism and further balancing. We technically already do it now, with the focus of ALL roles being DPS. I mean, if people are afraid of the idea it'd be too powerful (it shouldn't be any different than the output of current healers), then they have to just ask themselves "why?" Why would it be OP if the output were ideally similar? Then follow it up with what they would rather do in the situation presented by topics like this? And especially in topics regarding healers not DPSing. I would figure the only ones that would be against the idea of a dedicated DPS healer, at least in theory, are the very same ones that might complain about healers currently not DPSing lol. "Play it my way, because I had to struggle to learn" sort of people.

I get it if the devs aren't for it, simply based on the design philosophy that it's not mandatory for healers to DPS, but given how the general player mentality about that works... I don't think many care.

[Welsper59]

I really liked the Chloromancer in RIFT in terms of a DPS healer. You also have the Runemaster type mechanic/idea from LOTR:O

I seriously don't remember that class lol. I didn't play RIFT for very long though, so I guess that's not surprising.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

I hate the stance dancing play-style and it is the main reason I don't touch healing in this game. People like their stance dancing I get that, but that doesn't mean those who don't like it shouldn't have an option. I wish cleric stance was removed and replaced with something specific for a single job (preferably scholar). That way those who enjoy stance dancing will have their option and those who don't have theirs.

[Ama_Hamada]

That so? I just remember checking in 2.x and got that as an answer, and googled it again before my last post and got the same answer.
Not sayin' you're wrong though- just makes me wonder what the minimum MP formula is even more then. Thanks for shedding light on that!


I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

You are not reading that correctly, if you suddenly change the game to make healers dps less, You will lose players that play healing roles in this game. I do not care if you are sick of it or not, fact is fact and people said so they will quit healing if they impact changes to take such effects. You want to make healing more fun? How about not having us do nothing for 2-3 minutes? that is why healers need respectable dps, something to do.

Also you are right, I am sick of DPS on tank jobs, take away Deliverance. We should take away, shield oath, sword oath, Defiance, Deliverance, grit, and make tanks do weak damage but take damage like they do now with their defensive ones, otherwise you will have 8 warriors rushes. Stance switching is too complex and needs to be made easier. that is what tone this thread sounds like when talking about why we need to remove cleric.

"I mean, if my WAR in any given party only was playing WAR to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party" (You can easily change job and ill fit)

And you will be very hard pressed to find a tank, maybe you have fun with one of them perma grit drks.

I hate the stance dancing play-style and it is the main reason I don't touch healing in this game. People like their stance dancing I get that, but that doesn't mean those who don't like it shouldn't have an option. I wish cleric stance was removed and replaced with something specific for a single job (preferably scholar). That way those who enjoy stance dancing will have their option and those who don't have theirs.

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

The topic is about healers not tanks, if I brought up tanks I would be going off topic. Although yes, I don't like stance dancing on tanks either.

[Naunet]

You mean in terms of the DPS healer? Pretty much what Atlaworks said below your post. If you've played WoW, it'd be akin to Discipline Priest during various points of the game. I think some other MMORPGs sport this style too... maybe Rift or Allods?

Chloromancer is a far better example than Legion discipline priest, IMO. The horrible things Blizz did to disc priest have turned it into a shadow of what it once was. Meanwhile, Chloromancer is a fully fleshed out dps-healer with abilities that truly sync up with each other.

Gawd I'd love a chloromancer-like class in FFXIV!

[Taika]

I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party.

Many healer players, myself included, are playing the jobs precisely because they're hybrid type jobs in this game. If they were simplified by dropping half of their toolkit, many of those people would stop playing them. And wanting to play a hybrid type job (especially one that can be pretty demanding to optimise in the hardest content) does not make anyone "a pile of rubbish" as a player. In fact, one could argue the opposite.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

With how the game is currently played (and hence designed), both Cleric Stance and tank DPS stances play a major part throughout the group content, so there's no base to this argument.