Yoshi P's Paladin Love

[javid]

Clemency should function like BRD's Empyreal Arrow. Castable ability weaved in-between combos/weaponskills. Also reduced MP.

You know what this is the best idea I've heard by far!! This method would stick true to lore, would still need to be fixed for interruptions, but would not sacrificed a gcd!!!

If they made it a longer recast like 14 seconds or even 30 seconds but up the potency this skill alone would significantly up PLD sustainment. Mp/potency would definitely have to be rewarded bc after your first 3 used you'd have more than 30 sec before you could pop another cure.....then there is the issue of the subpar tanks.......i have a feeling they'd have issues on upkeep.....


I like the idea for sure!!!

[SyzzleSpark]

We already agreed current system PUNISHES pld for casting a skill, losing a dps gcd and the cast can be interrupted. However moving forward they can easily make pld having casting magic that does NOT forfeit dmg like we assume that "holy" magic in the BM will do (if it indeed was holy aoe magic). Nevertheless that isn't the only way to take make the best of a situation where pld would lose a attacking gcd to use a utility.... you telling me NOOOOOO FORM OF NON-DPS UTILITY THAT CAN EVER BE IMAGINE can ever outweigh pld losing that one gcd? This is why I can't follow the idea that "no melee should have casting??"

Tanks at their core in this game are simplified, weaker melee DPS with tanking responsibilities tacked on. That's just how it is, mechanically. Even if you gave them attacking magic, its laughable to sit there and be getting hit in the face, not being able to even use your shield, while trying to cast something. You speak of "making the best of a situation"... why are we settling for making the best of garbage when we could simply not be using garbage in the first place? It is, in my opinion, the most ridiculous design choice of 3.0. Even if you use it while OTing when you have no danger of being interrupted and have no hits to tank, then you're just trading that benefit for an even bigger hit to raid DPS since, unless there are adds, your primary contribution while not tanking is straight up damage.

I'm not saying that PLD couldn't get some holy magic abilities, but they should be just that, abilities, not casted spells. DRK has Salted Earth, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain... all of these satisfy the magicy-ness of the job's lore without requiring a moronic cast time.

Tanks have plenty of mitigation/tanking-centric utilities that don't require them to sacrifice any and all damage and passive mitigation (block/parry). Rage of Halone, Reprisal, Delirium, Storm's Path, Cover, Divine Veil... all of these abilities are not DPS utilities, but tanking utilities, and some of them even require a *small* sacrifice of DPS (Path, Halone), but what they don't do is make you a sitting duck for the duration of a cast time. Its not written anywhere other than common sense-

If it has a cast and you're on a job other than a healer, it should do damage. If you have a heal or utility ability that doesn't do damage, it should be off the GCD and weave-able between your damaging globals a la Cover/Equilibrium/Divine Veil. I have no problem with PLD being able to heal its team mates or mitigate damage for them, I just think its idiotic that some of us are willing to just accept the idea that it MUST have a cast time. It doesn't. It doesn't and there are more instances of such things not having casts than there are of them having them, in this game.

And before anyone steps in with "healers have DPS spells why can't other roles having healing spells" - see the myriad of threads on why healers can and should DPS. Any given current encounter in this game can *ALWAYS* use more DPS. On the other hand, the combined HPS of two decent healers so far outweighs the maximum potential DPS of ANY boss in this game that even their own heals become redundant, (hence why healers DPS) let alone extraneous healing from other party members. Bosses in this game are so woefully underpowered compared to the abilities of our 3 healing jobs its pitiful, therefore, DPS/Tanks getting to heal is not only dumb, but unnecessary.

The last time outside of this game that I saw somebody that was the primary target of a big monster stop and cast something, his ass fell into the black unknown and made a bunch of hobbits cry.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Alternatively, couldn't you just allow players to block (and perhaps parry and dodge) while casting, or make Paladin thus uniquely able? The shield is clearly being held in front during the cast. Already, there are more casts do not break combos than those that do. Clemency could simply lose that factor and voila—you have a spell that still costs uptime output to make up for its otherwise far superior healing over time, but doesn't vary in relative cost according to when in a combo it's needed.

The crucial differences between a cast and an ability, once you take out the nullification of RNG mitigation (block, dodge, & parry), is simply the cost of a GCD and the delay involved. Change either of those and the effect is less one of whether it suits a tank or not as:
- offensive output over time and
- whether the skill ought to feel reactive or preemptive (e.g pre-casting).

Personally, I feel like the cast time suits PLD more than another targeted-heal ability variant of Defiance-Equilibrium, and I would rather trade offensive uptime than utility via potential healing dealt over time or in burst. Tanks being able to heal in the first place, given a standard composition with all members alive, may be unnecessary, but I do at least like the option, if only for how many other options it can then open up. Clemency can be a fairly powerful tool.

My own wishlist:
- Give Spirits Within some benefit for when its offensive potency is reduced, such as either MP or HP restoration. Ideally, this should be effective enough to be worth holding onto the CD for, especially when in Shield Oath.
- Reduce Shelltron's comparative impact on mana restoration over time.
- Allow Paladin to block while casting.
- Increase Paladin's casting resistance, and/or reduce Tempered Will's cooldown append an interruption/silence immunity to its effects (it removes all status effects and then makes you immune to interruption, binds, heavies, slows, paralysis, knock-backs, and draw-ins).

[javid]

I don't think you're seeing the number of ASSUMPTIONS you're making for each of your points.... I'll try to point them out.

"...that's just how it is..."

No, that is not JUST how it is....that's JUST how the designers decided to make it.....meaning the same designers can decide to change it; THEN THAT would be JUST HOW IT IS....so no point was made there by simply pointing to the current status of the battle system (which we already know will have some changes).

Current rendition of tanks are weaker melee with defensive cds and enmity generation....ok? How is this a POINT why SE can't make a mage/melee tank....except to say "that's just how it is...."??? It's not at all enough to point the current system and say "this is how this works.." you need to demonstrate how this is the ONLY WAY IT CAN EVER WORK OPTIMALLY..........

It being "laughable"--that while casting, you lose the ability to block/parry--doesn't address the potential utility that casted spell can offer over that sacrificed POTENTIAL block/parry. Again you're ASSUMING YOUR POSITION without proving it.

"why are we settling for making the best of garbage.."

You've yet to demonstrate that all possible casted weaponskill/utility that can be imaged would be garbage....

while OT you made the assumption that in all cases possible it would be most optimal to allow the healer to cast that one cure than the PLD... I can think of a a few clerics reasons why in a very specific situation it would be a sustainment gain (indirect dps gain) to have pld lose a gcd so healers could cleric an extra gcd... (but this is being pedantic...OT'ing using clemency is situational, nothing normative about it.)

"moronic cast time" again...another restating of your premise yet without proving it.....

you're "common sense" isn't demonstrated to be common at all.

"If it has a cast and you're on a job other than a healer, it should do damage."

............ where are you getting this "fact of the matter" revelations from????? These assumptions are not at all proven nor common to any RPG common-sense, and definitely not Final Fantasy common-sense......

Also i notice you ignored some the major points i mentioned twice now. So ill mention them again in question and answer form.

Q1: Why should pld have a casting ability?

PLD doesn't HAVE to have a casting ability........... HOWEVER to stay TRUE the FINAL FANTASY LORE OF WHAT A PALADIN IS it would be CONSISTENT to keep paladin a MAGE KNIGHT WHICH USES CASTING WHITE MAGIC.

Q2: Is it impossible for SE to design a PLD casting utility and/or dps skill that would offset the penalty of being UNABLE to block or parry during the channeling of that spell?


There are a number of dps/utilties that can be imagined that would far exceed the lost of not having block/parry for ONE gcd... They could ALSO even allow you to STILL be able to parry/block during the channeling of the spell as well.

The number of options that can work around this supposed "penalty" are numerous.

Here is an example; what if SE gave PLD a battle raise that could not be interrupted and took 2 seconds to cast. Such a utility would be awesome for progression and would much alleviate healer's MP and party sustainment. I think PLD losing one GCD to raise a party member, which preserve healers' mp and lessen the sustainment stress on healers would make a niche ability as ONE example of the COUNTLESS utilities/dps concepts that can be envision.

...............even still......... some other guy had the greatest idea of fitting a cast ability in-between gcd's the way BRD does with Emp. Arrow!! Ingenious workout!!!

[SyzzleSpark]

wall of caps and bolded text.

Or, ya know, they could just make it not have a cast. Why are you so in love with the cast time? I promise you, you're in the minority there bud.

You also conveniently did not respond to every instance in my post of my saying I was fine with PLD having magic, or non-dps utility, as long as it doesn't have cast times. PLD isn't a damn caster, neither is DRK, DRK has magic, and as we saw in the bench mark, its getting some sort of extra protective utility that clearly doesn't do damage, and yet all of this is unencumbered by cast times. Get rid of the cast times.

You said I made a lot of assumptions and I suppose that is valid, but what your post is is basically a long diatribe of things that you want SE to make a special exception for on PLD's behalf. Block/parry through casting, casts can't be interrupted, can dps while casting... I prefer to go for the more simple solution which is, again...

Getting rid of the cast times. Honestly with 4.0 coming what I really hope they do is simply make Equilibrium a cross-role ability. If there's one thing a PLD's cast time is good for its the TP regen they so desperately need. /s

[javid]

snip /s

I think we done...

[Khalithar]

Snip

Being able to parry/dodge while casting isn't a bad idea but I question it's overall effectiveness. The reason being that, assuming pld CAN block/parry, during Clemency what's the point? You can mitigate while being hit by trash mobs? If you have a healer it's not really an issue since most of your time will probably be spent building threat and using cooldowns rather than needing your Clemency to keep you alive. Able to cast against bosses? Again, a buff but in most (not all! Just most!)cases the buster's can't actually be blocked/parried due to it being magical damage.

I personally would prefer Clemency to function like Equilibrium but rather than have a CD it will have the same high MP cost, making it a matter of timing and skill in knowing when to use it. Essentially you're in a situation (taking current costs in to account) where you have at least 2 Clemency uses on demand when you need them, I think making it an instant MP cost ability will better empower the players as to when they need to use it and make the ability more interesting as a whole.

Another thought is if you want it to be more useful than it is currently, what about reducing it's MP/cost and potency if you free cast it, but have it combo off of something like Rage of Halone for a free instant cast with increased healing potency compared to hard casting it? Turn it in to an actively used survival skill, maybe even fold divine veil in to it at a reduced effectiveness. Ditch veil and have a combo'd Clemency heal and shield the pld and/or a reduce shield on nearby party members, maybe 3-5% vs the 10%.

In my personal opinion, having cast times on tanks isn't necessarily a good thing unless you do something similar to swtor where one tank had a channeled spell but took reduced damage while it was being cast or the other which had procs that cut the channel time in half. I'm all for redoing Clemency, but I think the first step to it will be getting rid of the cast time entirely and going from there. Turning in to a different sort of reactive ability compared to the others we have now sounds like a good idea in my opinion.

To your wishlist:
-I think the reduced potency on Spirits needs to go and it could definitely use some sort of secondary effect.
-I would actually prefer to see MORE use of Shelltron for MP recovery and have it's cooldown reduced significantly, I've stated several times in the past that I think Pld needs more use of it's MP in general and having a defensive MP restore compared to drk's more offensive mp recovery (outside of blood price) would be an interesting way of going about it.
-Block while casting? See above.
-Tempered will is an interesting ability but I think it's too situational. I don't think it should be removed, but I feel like it's effects can be folded in to Bulwark as an additional effect. It would even make sense given the ability's name!

[javid]

This image is from the recent official blogpost.

As you can see, the PLD is using what appears to be off global cooldown skill (shown by the blue circular effect).
The animation doesn't match any of the current oGCDs, so it might be a new skill.
BUT if you look closely the pose is really similar to the current PLD's Clemency casting animation, both Oath's usage animation, and the new notHoly spell they might be getting as shown in the benchmark.
What could this mean?
Is Clemency being turned in to oGCD? Or both of the Oaths? Or something else entirely?

You be the judge.


You can actually. Instant cast GCD skill will either have yellow circular effect or nothing, trying using any weapon skills, flash, etc. Now try using any defensive oGCDs (Rampart, Bulwark, Sentinel etc.). They will show blue circular effect similar to this image. There are some exception to this (the only one I know of is DRK's Unmend, but most of the abilities follow this rule). Also it's not a cast skill either. Both Clemency and the new skill have distinct casting effect, same as any other spells that require casting in this game, as shown here.

YOU ALMOST HAD ME............but guess what...... try casting clemency itself..... it has the exact same animation as this screenshot....so it can still be a clemency like skill. Or even clemency itself...

the multi-color swirls that appear around the PLD in the First screenshot also match clemency animation exactly ...

WAIT.... the screenshot is missing the golden aura that appears simultaneously with the multi-color swirls..... either that's a funky timed clemency screenshot or ...another skill/ability

[Shurrikhan]

Being able to parry/dodge while casting isn't a bad idea but I question it's overall effectiveness. The reason being that, assuming pld CAN block/parry, during Clemency what's the point? You can mitigate while being hit by trash mobs? If you have a healer it's not really an issue since most of your time will probably be spent building threat and using cooldowns rather than needing your Clemency to keep you alive. Able to cast against bosses? Again, a buff but in most (not all! Just most!)cases the buster's can't actually be blocked/parried due to it being magical damage.

I personally would prefer Clemency to function like Equilibrium but rather than have a CD it will have the same high MP cost, making it a matter of timing and skill in knowing when to use it. Essentially you're in a situation (taking current costs in to account) where you have at least 2 Clemency uses on demand when you need them, I think making it an instant MP cost ability will better empower the players as to when they need to use it and make the ability more interesting as a whole.

Another thought is if you want it to be more useful than it is currently, what about reducing it's MP/cost and potency if you free cast it, but have it combo off of something like Rage of Halone for a free instant cast with increased healing potency compared to hard casting it? Turn it in to an actively used survival skill, maybe even fold divine veil in to it at a reduced effectiveness. Ditch veil and have a combo'd Clemency heal and shield the pld and/or a reduce shield on nearby party members, maybe 3-5% vs the 10%.

In my personal opinion, having cast times on tanks isn't necessarily a good thing unless you do something similar to swtor where one tank had a channeled spell but took reduced damage while it was being cast or the other which had procs that cut the channel time in half. I'm all for redoing Clemency, but I think the first step to it will be getting rid of the cast time entirely and going from there. Turning in to a different sort of reactive ability compared to the others we have now sounds like a good idea in my opinion.

To your wishlist:
-I think the reduced potency on Spirits needs to go and it could definitely use some sort of secondary effect.
-I would actually prefer to see MORE use of Shelltron for MP recovery and have it's cooldown reduced significantly, I've stated several times in the past that I think Pld needs more use of it's MP in general and having a defensive MP restore compared to drk's more offensive mp recovery (outside of blood price) would be an interesting way of going about it.
-Block while casting? See above.
-Tempered will is an interesting ability but I think it's too situational. I don't think it should be removed, but I feel like it's effects can be folded in to Bulwark as an additional effect. It would even make sense given the ability's name!

Why bother adding blocks to casting:
Primarily just this: if one were to use Clemency during Shelltron or Bulwark, the cast either delays the effect (also making it unable to prevent an interrupt through the 30% mitigation) or wastes the 2 seconds of the buff's duration. At present, PLD's MT benefits are relatively slim, and kind of wonky at that. Its main benefit from MTing is added Shield Swipe damage and mana restoration from Shelltron, but making use of that gained MP is hampered by reverse synergy from and the ease of interrupt on Clemency while MTing, and the added potency of Shield Swipe is offset by the often lost potency on Spirits Within. Removing this reverse synergy would at least help out part of that wonkiness.

Again, my desire to have Clemency cost offensive uptime is just the opposite coin-side of my wanting it to be as strong as possible as off-healing utility. I prefer it to be a cast, albeit with fewer downsides by whatever means, rather than an ability merely so that it remains an emergency ability of sorts, even if one that's so good that it is frequently used outside of emergencies (even, perhaps, as a way to fill the time by which one's SS-heavy rotation would otherwise clip GB).

The combo-cast is certainly an interesting idea, but one that I would have preferred to see on a more hybrid take on the Red Mage, for instance. I am liking where your thoughts on ditching Veil are going, but I'd like to see further where it's taking you before I feel like I can give you any good feedback.

Wishlist responses:
- I was thinking of SW as a MP/HP generator because then you'd at least have something to make it worthwhile (adding a tactical option) to hold onto, either as way to cast Clemency three times back to back or as a HP-recovery tool after a near death, in order to then barely survive the following AA without support.
- I'd like to see more use of Shelltron (I've said before I'd much rather see it as a level 2 skill like Empyreal Arrow simply called "Guard"), but not as a MP recovery tool. At present, a PLD can't really make good use of their MP while MTing, so why pigeon-hole mana recovery into the MT position?
- See above
- I could see that, especially as a way to cut back on bloat. Somewhat relevant shameless replug:

One thing I'd love to see on tanks is the ability to intercept damage for others more easily. This should especially be the case for Paladin. The way this would work is to have a second, enlarged tentative hitbox around the tank. If an ally within that tentative hitbox would be struck by an aimed ability that would reduce the ally to a lower %HP than the tank would be reduced to, the tank will be struck instead. Paladin's "Cover" would then be a trait, with two bonuses. For starters, it's a larger tentative hitbox than most. Second, it causes any allies affected or intercepted for to benefit from (some percent of) your % mitigation. For instance, a Warrior or Dark Knight could intercept an attack aimed at another, but a Paladin could also cause nearby allies to take reduced damage from AoEs, etc.

I've mentioned before that I'd like most AoEs to be progressively mitigated, meaning that any mitigation dealt against the an AoE as it first hits and, hit by hit, starts to spread would sap from that attack's strength. In that case, a DRK and WAR could still reduce damage to be taken from an AoE by intercepting it, cutting off the most damage from it before it's had the chance to spread. But a PLD would provide that benefit doubly.

As for Bulwark, my favorite idea has been a sort of copy of XIII's Steelguard. Essentially, you cause all damage to instead be taken in tiny, rapid increments, making what would have one-shot you instead potentially kill you over a second, for instance. But, moreover, over the duration of the buff it also increases your defense based on damage taken, so that by the last third of that would-be one-shot attack's damage, your % mitigation is massively increased. It smooths incoming damage immensely, and steadily immunizes you towards it. Each instance of added defense fades quickly, but can continue to ramp up until the end of Bulwark's duration. Because interception is maxed out by the %HP it would leave you at, this allows the Paladin to sort of get in over his head as each calculation hardly phases his % HP until he's already quite low. Alternatively, you could make Bulwark just forgo those calculations altogether, and intercept everything over an enhanced range. You could even remove the cooldown or TP costs on Guard for the time being. (See below.)

Guard - Channeled (max 2 seconds) - off the global cooldown - 30 TP + 20 TP per second. 10 second cooldown, reduced per potency blocked.
Increases block chance by 100% over the duration. (Excess block chance increases block effectiveness by half the excess percentage.)

You essentially weave this as needed. No offensive output over the duration, but can you heartily turtle. Ideally, I'd then use that to stack potential nuke damage or utilities through Shield Oath, but that's getting irrelevant at that point.

[Acidblood]

Personally, I would love to see:

• Block and Cover now apply to magic damage. (I don't mind PLD having the lowest DPS, but this means they should not have ANY holes in their defence)
• Clemency is uninterruptable, cast time reduced to 1.5 seconds, Edit: and stealing an idea, but also off GCD so it's weavable like Empyreal Arrow. (I don't want to see it go instant, or have a cooldown though, as having it repeatable cast, and on others, is useful in certain situations)
• Heal requirement removed from Divine Veil. (Seriously, why? It just makes it useless in all but the most co-ordinated groups)
• Riot Blade, or other mechanics, for faster MP recovery. (Doesn't need to be DRK levels, but between Flash, Clemency and what looks like now (Almost) Holy, more MP regen is needed; possibly tied to Sword Oath?)
• Make Sword Oath useful to the point that I notice if I'm not in it. (And possibly remove from GCD)
• Some form of repeatable AoE damage.