I'm calling it the Epidemic. (This is a rant, if you dont wanna hear it, don't click)

[bardaboo]

No I'm not. I also believe that players should strive to be good, and play the game as intended, but it has to be understood that there is an inherent risk when you decide to play this game, or literally do anything at all...anywhere, in anything... when you are doing it with random people you don't know. That's just a given. If you want to be upset over that, then be my guest. If you aren't willing to accept that if you use DF, there is a good chance you'd run into people who don't know what their doing, then you're only doing yourself a disservice by using DF.

That's just called maturity.

It's also mature to actually try, and not intentionally slow up your other party members, that's all the OP and myself are saying. Please try. Instead of hiding behind the DF blanket of anonymity and protection. We aren't saying everyone had to be amazing, but instead to keep in mind it's an MMO and you are playing with others.

I'm saying if someone KNOWS they are going to be a hindrance maybe they should preform. And if you are learning a class still, take advice.

[akaneakki]

. :/.

1: You say we don't know the story of the person we play in duty finder. Did you know that Yoshida got very praised for having the game easier than most games out there, especially disabled players? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogCRNvghbiw&feature=youtu.be Look at that link. The player who made this video also posted on reddit, praising the team for making it easier for disabled players. So stop your white knighting there.
2: I have dyslexia as well, so please...the description on the skills/cds are well informed enough to understand, another bad excuse.
3: A player that has 1 or 2 ilvl 60 but they enter on a class that's ilvl 270, isnt their sub class this is mostlikely a main class if anything.
4: They don't have to tell anyone their stories, we never asked for it either and you make it sound like over 60% YESS 60%!!!! of the players are disabled.
5: My room mates and my gf talks to me while I do dungeons too, ofc I get distracted enough for a short time, but does it make me play bad through out the dungeons? Hell no and if I was going to be distracted for a while, I would ask if they could wait for me if not I would leave. So yet another bad excuse.
6: Leechers happens most of the time, more than most people say they are. In fact you make the leechers just leech more, because you happen to give them excuse for doing so. How about helping people improve and let them know they need to improve, instead of coming with bunch of excuses.
7:Kupokage happened to get some experience where people shouted at him/her, just like people do it to me. Is it optimal? Not really, but for sure should be a WAKEUP CALL. If you want people to stop harras you or prove them wrong, then do so, don't ignore the issue, too many does. This is without being shit talked to or being given advice in a nice way.

[sarehptar]

-Clip-

1) Being praised for making the game accessible is a great thing. That's why we should continue to keep the game accessible by finding alternative ways to help poor players improve their performance, rather than turning to vote kicking anyone whose play we dislike.
2) Not everyone's disability/disability level is the same? Just because you can do something doesn't mean everyone else can? I mean, some people who lose an arm are still just as coordinated as people who have two arms, but some people who lose an arm are not and have to work very hard to get coordination back. No one person can represent an entire category of people.
3) If someone obviously leeches while wearing 270 gear, okay, kick them? I never argued that obvious trolls shouldn't be handled like obvious trolls. But, then again, this game throws gear at anyone who asks for it, so an item level number really has nothing to do with a player's skill level or lack thereof...
4) I have no idea where in the world you're getting the number 60%, absolutely no idea, so I'm just going to /shrug to this.
5) Good for you? I guess you're just better than everyone else who can't play perfectly while distracted. Here's a gold star, I suppose.
6)

How about helping people improve and let them know they need to improve, instead of coming with bunch of excuses.

I mean... okay...

Not saying there aren't plenty of sub-par players in this game, but... did you, at any point, try talking to these people in a polite and friendly way to get these problems solved? If you notice an issue, you can reduce the likelihood of it happening to other people by (politely) sharing what you know and improving the community overall.

Nor does saying this stuff mean I don't think we should encourage players to improve. If I see something glaringly wrong with someone else's playing, I politely point it out and really sincerely hope they'll fix the problem as soon as possible. I ask for Foe Requiem when I'm not getting it. I point out missing poisons and heavy thrust, etc.

7) Or we could just... not harass other people? If it's "not optimal" as you note, why support shit talking? Why not focus on other, more optimal ways to improve your fellow players' performance, like better in-game checks for poor play style and skill level, like many others on this forum have suggested? Like I said in my post you so kindly cherry-picked, some people will get a wake up call from being yelled at. But others will just quit, and that sucks, because if they'd been handled another way, maybe they could have become better players in the long-run. I'd really rather not be part of a community where throwing shit on anyone who doesn't play as well as you personally want is the very first line of communication, thanks.

[Kaethra]

Friendly reminder that you don't know the story of anyone you party with in duty finder.

That's an excuse. You literally described one player out of 10,000 or more.

No I'm talking about the derps who can play just fine. You know the ones.. they'll use swiftcast rez to get someone up in Palace simply because they need them to be alive to progress the floor. But then go back to their lazy 1 or 2 button spam. If someone can swiftcast rez, that tells me they can read tooltips fine. That tells me they can put 2 and 2 together.

I can tell a newbie. I can tell when someone has issues. And I can tell a dork who's there just for themselves, the ones who go 'lol whatever' when you correct them. A disabled person isn't going to be jerk in chat. Unless they've got some crazy mental disorder, but they don't need to be in the general population if they're that bad off. Vote kicking them would be a favor to them.

No, making an argument for disabilities is just an excuse to not take responsibility. Those days are over. Everyone is accountable now. Let that be known. We don't need the devs. We don't need excuses. Let the vote kicks commence.

If the green dinosaur doesn't like it, and takes out the feature. We'll go back to doing premades and let the leeches play with jerks. Simple as that. Power is in our hands to fix this either way.

[akaneakki]

1) thanks.

1: Yes, but since you brought up disabled people, look at this guy. He's an amazing player and hes a player people should look up to, not only in game but in life itself. Kudos to that guy, really impressed.
2: That's true, but then again, you make it sound like 90% of the bad players are disabled when they arent.
3: That's what people do and we also talk about people who say they don't leech but play well enough. When you are lvl 60, you dont spam fire 3 on the boss. Or cast blizard 4 then fire 4 then bliz 4 etc. Or 1 2 3 combo on DRG for xample. This isn't about all about leeching, this is about people not wanting to improve on purpose, which I find very toxic in my opinion. As a community, we should help the players to find their way to rotations and so on, but very hard when people gives tham the very same excuses you brought up. Disabled, can't read etc the list goes on.
4: I just bring a random number, but the scary part is, the way I've met players in the past and recently, it's scary how accure that number can be.
5: Did you read what I said? I told you, if you know you will be distracted through out the run, you kindly ask for them to wait, if not you leave out, obviously out of respect. You don't waste peoples time.
6: Oh trust me, many people including myself have tried. Let me dig and I'll find some screenshots. Obviously I've met people who accepted the help and they turned out to be one of the best players now! Not only that the game is way more fun knowing they perfom well enough.
7: Like I said, people who tried to tell people they need a little kick on the butt to improve, in a very nice way, but some people end up saying, blabla my sub, blabla don't tell me how to play or I will tell you. I'm not saying it's good to tell people straight up they are bad and be mean about it. It does happen yes, but the issue is, people IGNORE it. If you get told 10-20-30-40 etc times, it should wake you up, not make you sit back. I'm not saying it's the way it should be done, far from it, I'm saying it should wake people up. I'm all up for helping people, so are others, but it's hard when EXCUSES keeps coming their way and they just go on the boat of excuses and think.. hey it's all good.

[sarehptar]

No, making an argument for disabilities is just an excuse to not take responsibility.

I really don't understand how people have such bad tunnel vision on this forum. It's like y'all saw the word "disability" and started foaming at the mouth so hard you couldn't see past your own bubbles. I mentioned two other, far larger categories in my post: distracted players and nervous players. These aren't 1 in 10,000. All kinds of people have all kinds of shit going on in real life that might throw off their gaming. Sometimes just having a bad day at work can make it hard to perform as well as you normally would? How would kicking them improve that? And people play off-classes they're not super confident with all the time, which can badly affect their game play--but they can't become better without playing that class more. How would kicking them improve that?

My point was never that no one deserves a kick ever. My point was always "Are you really improving the community by vote kicking anyone who merely inconveniences you?" Will vote kicking a boat load of people you'll likely never party with again really help them become better players? Will it make the community better in any way?

I just honestly don't think so, and that's been my opinion this whole time.

[Faliandra]

Distracted players? You mean the netflix people? No excuse. Votekick commenced.
If you wanna watch stuff, go watch your stuff. If you wanna play the game,play the game. Not both, unless you can actually handle
it without being a burden on everyone else. Same goes for your invading room mates etc.
If you're not horribly bad, I wont kick you anyway. But if you are, you deserve the kick.

Nervous players? Right, everyone is nervous to join an anonymous dungeon finder.
If someone heavily underperforms,I observe them to see if I can find any obvious mistakes.
And if I do, I tell them nicely.
If I get anything along the lines "lel,whatever", "I play how i want", "its muh sub" ==> Votekick \o/

If they take my advice and try, we're good. No,they do not need to double their dps instantly, but if
I tell a dragoon to keep Heavy Thrust up,he shouldnt need 2 hours of practise to manage to do that.
Heck, I've "wasted" 20 mins the other week and I did it gladly, because I taught a completely clueless paladin how to be
a much better tank. He seemed happy and grateful about it, considering he showered me in thank yous and commended me.
Yeah, I'd say he was nervous, but i ensured him that I dont mind us wiping while hes figuring out his trial and error.

But when it gets to the point that a lvl 60 player's dps is lower than what a lvl 50 player can do and is ignoring half of his skills,
thats when I wont bother saying anything and commence the votekick right away. Seriously, I mean it. When a lvl 50 can do MORE dmg,
theres really no excuse that justifies having to talk that person. That person has to be slacking on purpose, if I can outperform
him by far just pressing 1-2-3 on a dummy. (yeah,I do that sometimes after encountering ppl like that just to prove a point to myself).


Bottom line: I say something when I feel someone is struggling, if that person is nervous, then he obviously cares about his performance
and will accept advice. If not => bye o/


PS: Just wanna generally mention that in around an estimate of 70% of cases whenever I run roulettes (usually daily, almost all of them), I outdps at least one of the two dps classes as a healer.

[sarehptar]

Bottom line: I say something when I feel someone is struggling, if that person is nervous, then he obviously cares about his performance
and will accept advice. If not => bye o/

I think the problem is that we're all talking about different groups of people. Like I mentioned in my post way back when, I'm all for kicking obvious leeches and jerks. In fact, there's screenshot evidence on these forums of me instigating a vote kick for someone who actively refused to play his class correctly and deliberately trolled the party to the point it was impossible to succeed in the duty.

But where do you draw the line? It's great if you only ever use vote kick to kick people who explicitly refuse to take your good advice and act like dipshits in the party. But when it turns into "I'm going to kick anyone I see not meeting my DPS standards," or "That person didn't use that skill, we should kick him!" that's what I (personally!) take issue with. Can you really always tell someone deliberately leeching from someone just doing a really crappy job because they honestly don't realize how bad they're doing? Even if it's really annoying, is it really fair to kick someone just because they're inconveniencing you by being slower than you'd like? I hate a long expert roulette as much as the next person, but I don't just start kicking when I realize I've been paired with someone who is going to make my run twenty minutes longer. I sigh and get on with life. It's this kind of kick that I have issue with, not kicking a jerk who insults someone for giving advice in party chat.

If you're reaching into the grab bag of randoms to fill spaces because you don't have a full party for a duty, you have to be aware that you're not going to get paired with angels every time. Sometimes your duty is going to be 20 minutes longer because DF paired you with a really sub-par player.

Vote kicking will never stop that from happening, not in a million years. It might make your immediate run faster, but it won't solve the OP's "epidemic." And I just don't see it helping make any long-lasting difference in the long run. Like I said, I don't want to end up in a community where we just hover our cursors over the vote kick looking for any plausible fault to justify kicking. That's just not the kind of environment I'd like to play in. If it's the kind of environment you'd like to play in, okay I guess. We can agree to disagree.

[Nestama]

Oh boy, why is so hard for certain people to accept that using DF is like a dice roll and all you can do is deal with it? From my experience (EU) extremely bad parties are rare, yeah at times a dungeon take like an extra 5/10 minutes but thats about it. If you don't want to deal with this stop using DF and form a premade, no excuses, for a dungeon you only need three more players. If you don't have enough contacts make more and if you can't improve your social skills.

Also, you should accept that some people are just not that good even when they are traying their best, thats why basic content is so easy.

We don't have to deal with it. If someone is being bad and refuses to accept helpful advice on how to improve, then we can kick them.

I recall a time in Gubal Library (level 60 as a reminder) where the party I was in had a Ruin Mage who never used DoT's or any of their Level 52-60 skills (they were level 60. Had the Kinna weapon). I repeatedly tried explaining, rather nicely, that they need to use DoT's, as well as re-summon their pet that had de-summoned on the first boss because of the wall. By the second boss, I was still trying to explain to them they needed to use DoT's... and then they told me to shut up. At that point, I 100% knew they weren't going to accept any helpful advice/suggestions and because a Ruin Mage is pretty much useless, I initiated the vote kick (it went through).

I understand that it may have appeared I was nagging, but I cannot accept carrying a Ruin Mage who doesn't even re-summon their pets. I've also decided that if the person I'm trying to help doesn't listen to helpful advice/suggestions by the second boss (or uses "my sub my way" at any point), then I'll be initiating a vote kick. I do not pay my sub to carry Ruin Mages, Blizzard Mages, III Mages etc (which is thankfully a rare occurrence. Most of my DF runs are quick, efficient and quiet).

[Faliandra]

But where do you draw the line? It's great if you only ever use vote kick to kick people who explicitly refuse to take your good advice and act like dipshits in the party. But when it turns into "I'm going to kick anyone I see not meeting my DPS standards," or "That person didn't use that skill, we should kick him!" that's what I (personally!) take issue with. Can you really always tell someone deliberately leeching from someone just doing a really crappy job because they honestly don't realize how bad they're doing?

Well, I think I have a good idea where I draw the line because I have numbers to work with. I know what real good dps looks like, I know what average/so-so dps looks like and I know whats outright abysmal.
Outright abysmal is when they do less than a lvl 50 or just slightly more than a lvl 50.

"so-so" is about half or even a bit less than half of what a real good dps averages. I tolerate that, even though its not good.
But its not abysmal. Theyre not facerolling, so its fine.