seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

[dragonseth07]

And what level is that?

To answer, here's some background on my starting this game and where my view came from.

I've played many multiplayer games, and the one thing that everyone seems to universally hate is a bad teammate. That's fair. So, my approach is always to do my best to never be that guy that gets bad stories told about him on Reddit. Why? Because, in my opinion, it's courteous. No-one wants a bad teammate, so being one is rude and disrespectful.

So, before starting this game, I did my homework. I read about the class and job system, cross-class skills, dungeons, tanking, healing, DPSing, the raiding meta, how questing works, everything. I read it all, and I watched lots of gameplay videos, so I wouldn't be dead weight to anyone.

I don't expect everyone to do all of that. But, I firmly believe that the intent should be there to elevate oneself for the sake of your teammates, however you can best accomplish that. It is rude and disrespectful to not be the best teammate you can be, and that's why I feel the way I do, and hold standards that are higher than others present.

I'm not a perfect player, and never will be. I make plenty of mistakes, and I've caused wipes. But, I will always keep trying to improve my play for the sake of my teammates. It's why I spend time outside of the game on these forums among other places. It's why I listen to podcasts and watch videos related to this game.

[winsock]

No-one wants a bad teammate, so being one is rude and disrespectful.

This is either incorrect or a self-defeating argument:
A) Incorrect
Something that is unwanted is not necessarily rude/disrespectful.
Ex: No one wants an unhealthy family member. If a family member becomes unhealthy, it doesnt mean they have been rude to you or disrespected you

B) Self-defeating argument
Assume your logic is true: Something unwanted is rude/disrespectful and we should avoid being rude/disrespectful. While it would support your argument, it also supports this one:
No one wants to be the source of a complain, target of harassment, butt of a joke, etc; therefore, actions like these are rude/disrespectful. So, we should not complain about, make fun of, harass, etc new tanks.

I read it all, and I watched lots of gameplay videos, so I wouldn't be dead weight to anyone
...
I'm not a perfect player, and never will be. I make plenty of mistakes, and I've caused wipes.

I guarantee someone has considered you to be dead weight.

I firmly believe that the intent should be there to elevate oneself for the sake of your teammates, however you can best accomplish that. It is rude and disrespectful to not be the best teammate you can be, and that's why I feel the way I do, and hold standards that are higher than others present.

And how do you make the determination as to whether or not someone else's "intent" is proper? How can you tell if they are "best accomplish[ing] that"?

Just to recap this paragraph:
You believe every player should have 2 things, neither of which are not measurable.
If they dont have these 2 things, you consider them rude, which is subjective.
Or in other words, you just kinda pick and choose...

To answer, here's some background on my starting this game and where my view came from.

Please note that you have not answered my question. You made the claim that there is a "level of comprehension and self-sufficiency that one can and should expect from even brand new players". I have asked you to define that level, but instead you told me a backstory and your feelings about things. I didnt ask about either of those. I am just asking for a measurable definition.

To clarify:
Could you please define the minimum "level of comprehension and self-sufficiency that one can and should expect from even brand new players"? For example, if I were to adopt your system, how do I know if someone fits the bill? If I adopt your system, what do I need to know so that you and I would come to the same conclusion about a particular player 100% of the time?

All of the information you have provided so far is either subjective or not measurable (in other words: useless). I could not adopt your system even if I tried.

This standard you are holding people to appears to be based completely on your feelings. Is it actually a reasonable standard? Or is this just something you do to feel better about your negative thoughts / actions towards new tanks?

[Mikazuki_Aura]

I would expect these of new tanks:

• Gear within 10 levels of the dungeon level.
• Know how and when to use Flash.
• Know how to activate Shield Oath and leave it on.
• Know how to use defensive cooldowns.
• Keeping aggro on 50% of mobs.

I do not expect the following:

• Gear of equal/higher level than the dungeon.
• Knowing maximum DPS rotations.
• Being able to interrupt attacks correctly.
• Facing mobs in the correct direction.
• Being able to survive at least 6 mobs.
• Knowing when to switch between Sword and Shield Oath.
• Knowing when to Fracture and when not to.
• Proper usage of Provoke when aggro is lost.
• Keeping aggro on all mobs all the time.

The above list is a list of basic requirements everyone who has cleared Hall of the Novice can do, with no dungeon mechanic knowledge and no MMO experience. The later list is a list of speedrun/farm type requirements, which is more restrictive.

If someone fails the basic requirement list, I can prevent the dungeon from wiping if I'm the healer, even if it means getting myself killed once or twice. If I'm a DPS, the dungeon will wipe most of the time, and we need to sit down and have a chat with the tank before we continue.

I literally just completed a Stone Vigil run with a tank that didn't know how to tank at all. He held aggro on one mob (in spite of Shield Oath), I had aggro on all others, all the time. Between running back and forth with Regen and Swiftcasting Sleep, I only died once when the black mage decided to Fira a group of mobs I sent to sleep. After telling him to Flash, he still doesn't Flash. He has lvl 50 gear from PotD. Tanks that bad are still survivable, even if extremely annoying.

[ADVSS]

This standard you are holding people to appears to be based completely on your feelings. Is it actually a reasonable standard? Or is this just something you do to feel better about your negative thoughts / actions towards new tanks?

You know, it might feel harmless at first, but how far will you drop the bar to pass before it completely wrecks your experience later down the road? The community has expectations especially down the road, and the novice hall doesnt do it, and tool tips barely help with any cohesion with that stuff. The best way to get this information, without trying and research, will probably be that mean dps/healer who probably had enough and blew up on them

[Yasuhiro]

Just sounds like your typical run on Tonberry.

[winsock]

You know, it might feel harmless at first, but how far will you drop the bar to pass before it completely wrecks your experience later down the road? The community has expectations especially down the road, and the novice hall doesnt do it, and tool tips barely help with any cohesion with that stuff. The best way to get this information, without trying and research, will probably be that mean dps/healer who probably had enough and blew up on them

I think you are asking the right questions.
* Where should the bar be?
* What should it be used for?

Its important to define that bar so that progress can be made towards it. Ex: Mika made a suggestion about ilvl. Why not enforce an ilvl req?

What good does using the bar to explode on a new tank do? Less people to tank? Longer queues? Are you using the bar just to give yourself permission to explode? What good does that do anyone? The tank doesn't like it and neither does the person exploding.

[dragonseth07]

To clarify:
Could you please define the minimum "level of comprehension and self-sufficiency that one can and should expect from even brand new players"? For example, if I were to adopt your system, how do I know if someone fits the bill? If I adopt your system, what do I need to know so that you and I would come to the same conclusion about a particular player 100% of the time?

You want clarification? Sure. I believe that even a brand new player should be held accountable for reading and applying (at a basic level) in-game information. That's my threshold. There it is. I want people to be willing to read what's in front of them.

When you mouse over a spell and it tells you what it does? Read that. Maybe consider those words as more than screen clutter. The same can be said for literally everything else you can put your mouse over: stats, items, TRAITS... The help boxes that pop up all the time? Those actually have some really critical information in them sometimes. NPC's telling you what to do in Hall of the Novice or instances like Steps of Faith? It's not there for atmosphere. Quest requirements when something is red and locked out for you? Would certainly answer lots of questions in the NN. You level up and get a message to go get your new class ability? That's important to read to.

I get upset when I have to explain something to someone when the game already told them in their native language exactly how it works.

Are there bad tooltips? Yeah. Are some things not very clear? Definitely. But, at least TRY.

[LeeraSorlan]

For the third time in this thread, I will say that Overpower/Flash spam IS SITUATIONAL. Sometimes, I get the synched down DPS that can AE like maniacs, so my job shifts to AE enmity instead of following "The Perfect Rotation As Specified

The only situation where you would need to spam overpower to keep aggro is if you are undergeared.


No dps will be able to rip aggro if you play war right with buffs and are around the same gear level. Simple. If you are needing to OP spam to hold aggro id reccommend checking your rotation and seeing where you can improve.


Flash is 99% useless and the 1% time it isnt is for emergency situations that were caused by the tanks own blunder (getting pacified shortly before a horde of enemies spawn).


Other than that, i guess you could just use it for extra "why not" padding during pacification, but its generally useless. Ive had flash on my war up to lvl 45 before i realized i never use it, and i dont miss it.

i understand you dont have war at 60 yet, and perhaps you didnt have a longtime lvl 50 war during ARR, so the learning process is still in effect for you, but once you get more accustomed to war, you will find yourself as well, almost never or if ever, using flash.

[winsock]

You want clarification? Sure. I believe that even a brand new player should be held accountable for reading and applying (at a basic level) in-game information. That's my threshold. There it is. I want people to be willing to read what's in front of them.

When you mouse over a spell and it tells you what it does? Read that. Maybe consider those words as more than screen clutter.

You're still not answering with something you can measure.
I can't know whether or not someone has actually read something prior to the duty.
"applying at a basic level" is subjective.

For example, in the OPs example, the new tank missed with flash. I can detect whether or not the tank hit with flash. I can't know whether or not they read the tooltip prior. Is a learning tank allowed to miss with flash? I can tell if a tank loses aggro. Is a new tank allowed to lose aggro? Etc

Please define your standard by things that can actually be measured/perceived. All you have been doing is making assumptions about strawmen.

[Mikazuki_Aura]

Flash is more a Paladin thing for the damage reduction from blind. Warrior doesn't get that, so unless you're low on TP for some reason, mobs are so far apart they can only be reached with a flash in their centre or you're Pacified, overpower's ability to damage mobs is always superior since they have exactly the same Threat.