Personal Limit Breaks

[Belhi]

Fundamentally a unique limit break bar would just turn the Limit Breaks into flashy CDs rather than anything dramatic. They would be nerfed a lot, not a little. All it would end up being is a high pot hit with a cast bar that you work into your existing rotation like any other ability. Personally I think they serve a better role as a tactical group CD to add an additional dynamic to group play.

[Zojha]

Personally I think they serve a better role as a tactical group CD to add an additional dynamic to group play.

What dynamic?
If the encounter demands tank LB: Tank hits the LB button.
If everyone is dead and you happen to have LB3: Healer hits the LB button.
Mob groups: Ranged hits the LB button.
All other cases: Melee DPS hits the LB button.

That's not very dynamic, that's extremely static and it's strategical more than tactical - The only LB with tactical use is Healer LB and that's because wipe comebacks aren't pre-planned before you enter. I have yet to see any other one be used tactically - Most of the time, it's either set in advance by the fight design or the melee just hits it when ready.

And truth be told, if one argues that personal LBs are just giant cooldowns, then naturally group LBs already are just giant cooldowns as well - Difference being if one person activates theirs, all of them go on CD. So the logical suggestion following from that argument is to remove the limit break as it is in favor of cooldowns that activate for everyone in the instance in order to cull visual clutter in form of the LB bar. It's a general argument against LBs as such.

That would naturally come at a loss - Namely the Meter Mechanics. And this is where the one strong argument for group LBs comes in: They are used to promote group diversity and punish job stacking. That is a function they serve and would have to be done by something else if they weren't there, because it's an important function.

That all said... I still prefer personal LBs. I'd rather they be a tool to reward good play with flashy animations than basically being either a generic fight mechanic where one player of one role has to press one button or just another melee DPS CD as it usually is.

[Altena]

What dynamic?
If the encounter demands tank LB: Tank hits the LB button.
If everyone is dead and you happen to have LB3: Healer hits the LB button.
Mob groups: Ranged hits the LB button.
All other cases: Melee DPS hits the LB button.

I mean, while I agree that the LB system is reasonably uninteresting, what you just listed is technically "dynamic". Each role's LB is for a different purpose, and that changes from duty to duty, albiet it rarely changes from fight to fight, however regardless what system you throw at everyone - there is always going to be a simple illusion of choice, one where there is still an optimal use for it. The current system is a prime example of this. We have a party wide attack that does different things depending on the role that initiates it - gives the illusion of choice, however you mostly use them in the most optimal way, and that optimal way doesn't change - which is what causes the "dynamic" part of the system to be come extremely static.

This is what makes group based LB's and personal LB's different.
A personal LB is just everyone spamming their LB whenever it's up. A group LB generally is used based on a group decision (or forced mechanic) in every fight.

Not sure why people say they never see the healer LB's.. Every 2nd time I run Dun Scaith I still see it.. It's the Tank's LB that you only ever see in A12S..

... and it's strategical more than tactical - The only LB with tactical use is Healer LB and that's because wipe comebacks aren't pre-planned before you enter. I have yet to see any other one be used tactically - Most of the time, it's either set in advance by the fight design or the melee just hits it when ready.

There are actually certain situations where using either DPS or Tank LBs can be more tactical than strategical.
I am just going to comment on A11S and A12S mostly here because honestly in practically every other fight you can spam Tank LB every time you hit 1 bar and it would barely matter...

- DPS LB can be used within a small window, if you are falling short on the DPS (due to deaths or whatever reason) to skip Lapis in A11S.
- Tank LB can be used during the final phase of A12S for Holy Bleed if people are weak, or if a healer is dead, or simply if you feel like you need the mitigation.
- DPS LB can be used on an E.D.D if for some reason you have dead people and won't kill it before it self destructs in A11S

I mean, don't misunderstand me - I am not saying that the current system is great, or even good for that matter. I am just pointing out that there are certain situations (while only a few) where the use of DPS and Tank LB can be used in a tactful way.

My main point here is that their design is "dynamic" in the sense that you have the choice to use it in a setting that best fits the fight / circumstance, however for the majority of the time they are used in a static manner - as there is nearly always an optimal choice when a fight is going as planned. It's when a fight gets hairy is when the use of the LB is more "dynamic".

And truth be told, if one argues that personal LBs are just giant cooldowns, then naturally group LBs already are just giant cooldowns as well - Difference being if one person activates theirs, all of them go on CD. So the logical suggestion following from that argument is to remove the limit break as it is in favor of cooldowns that activate for everyone in the instance in order to cull visual clutter in form of the LB bar. It's a general argument against LBs as such.

Well they are, with flavour.. Like I mentioned earlier. They are a shared cooldown in all honesty - one which has more "dynamic" than a personal LB as you have to choose what to use it for.. Give people personal LB's and it just becomes a light show and is spammed on cooldown/when the bar fills. If the argument for personal LBs comes from the ability to increase the bar fill rate from "fine play", let's be real - what the game registers as "fine play" is generally not..
It fills faster from not job stacking, getting healed from near-death, and crits - plus the passive fill during combat.. Turn the system on its head and redefine what "fine play" actually is - then sure, I will stop calling it a shared cooldown, however currently that's all it basically is..

Sure, remove the LB bar and just convert it to a cooldown on the LB button. Fine by me. It's all just flavour that doesn't really mean much to me. You're still going to use it at the same points in the fight 95% of the time, aside from the random situations that come up like I mentioned above..

That would naturally come at a loss - Namely the Meter Mechanics. And this is where the one strong argument for group LBs comes in: They are used to promote group diversity and punish job stacking. That is a function they serve and would have to be done by something else if they weren't there, because it's an important function.

100% agreed. Though job stacking in this game is actually more of a penalty than a help most of the time. Sure you can double AST for higher chance of balance.. However the majority of the classes in this game are weaved together in some form - X class buffs Y class who buffs Z class.

That all said... I still prefer personal LBs. I'd rather they be a tool to reward good play with flashy animations than basically being either a generic fight mechanic where one player of one role has to press one button or just another melee DPS CD as it usually is.

I am in no way defending the current system and saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am merely pointing out that what people like about LBs are the flashy animations and flavour, but when it comes down to it - if the current system was to be given to players on a singular level rather than a group level - they would be comparable to some 3-5 min cooldown and nearly all of what makes the LB system even marginally "dynamic" will be removed..

I am all for reward/benefit mechanics for individual classes, however I see that this sort of thing should come more from the class's individual mechanics rather than some generic system that fills a gauge that lets you use an attack. These reward/benefit mechanics are already in play for some classes - examples would be GL on MNK, BotD on DRG, Enochian on BLM, Trance on SMN..

I would prefer to see the battle system fleshed out further for classes on an individual level rather than some tack-on gauge system. I am not arguing against more dynamic play, I am simply arguing against resorting to the poor LB system to achieve this. I would rather see things like proper resource managment for all classes, none of this "pop Invigorate or Purification if you're low on TP" rubbish. An example would be to allow Chaos Thrust to be used out of combo, but costs like 500 TP, and applies the entire amount of damage from the intitial hit + DoT in one hit. This sort of thing would allow for stupid high amounts of burst, but then a phase where you would have to regenerate your TP by doing combos that restore TP - rather than just popping a skill (Invigorate). This might not be the greatest example but I hope you get my point.. BLM is the closest to having resource managment with Astral/Umbral phases, however the way MP is handled is unintersting to me.


Holy moley.. I didn't think my post was this long when I was typing it..

My end note / tldr:
There are better ways to improve combat dynamics than tacking on a limit break bar for everyone..

something I've said since beta is that's true for the entire combat system pretty much... so many skills going off at any given time nothing is realy noticeable. friend of mine earlier was quite pumped hed dome some major crit damage on fell cleave and everyone was like "did you?, didn't notice!"

limit breaks are kinda the same... lb3 on a boss and barely even knock off 2% of its hp.... wutttttttt????

Yesss that is one thing I really dislike in terms of the aesthetics in this game.
EVERY SINGLE SKILL has a damn flashy light.

They should let us filter out the lighting effects of all skills that aren't combo finishers or major cooldowns. Throwing some examples out there...
Currently all we have is "All", "Limited" and "None"..

Going to use DRG as an example because they are a fairly good one that is full of flash...

Limited should filter OUT:
- Heavy Thrust
- True Thrust
- Vorpal Thrust
- Phlebotomize
- Impulse
- Disembowel
- Talon
- Self Buffs (b4b etc)
- Leg Sweep

Limited should DISPLAY
- Chaos Thrust
- Full Thrust
- Jumps
- Party buffs (Battle Lit/Mantra)
- Geirskogul

They should also remove the lighting effects that come from "around" the characters when using a skill.. Just show the particle effects of the attack itself, not the "glowy" stuff that surrounds you when indicating. (This doesn't include self-buffs obviously)