Eat It or Dodge? What to Do About AoE?

[Rongway]

If I've got a NIN or DRG, I'll slow down and do smaller pulls to let them single-target the mobs down.

The problem I see often with DDs single targeting is that they kill things. This is very bad, especially when everyone else is using AoEs, because a single target DD who is killing weak mobs is effectively doing zero (0) dps.

If a DD needs to switch to single target in order to maintain TP, then that person needs to attack mobs that have the most health. Otherwise, the damage they're doing is merely a substitute for a portion of AoE damage, rather than an addition to it, resulting in a total party DPS that is not much higher than if he was standing there doing nothing.

[Zojha]

Looking at their theoretical outputs, NIN and DRG are just as ill-suited to burning down mobs with AoE as PLD is.

Uh...wut? I play NIN.

I can go for 10 GCDs, which means 20 seconds at 110 potency per target, not counting natural TP regeneration or Invigorate (which would allow me an additional 3 + 4 GCDs). That's 550 potency per GCD in a mere 5 mob pull for 26 seconds and enough time for 2 Katons at 250 potency per target each. Not counting Kassatsu.

Even in a perfect world where you just need to 1-2-3 your Aeolian Edge combo and the DoTs magically re-apply themselves and Dancing Edge is provided by someone else, your single-target rotation barely reaches 322 average potency per GCD. Even if you assume each of those skills only cost 50 TP, that's 6,45 potency per TP. In reality it's lower. At 6 enemies, I get 660 potency per GCD, that's 6,6 potency per TP. At that point, AoE is even more TP efficient than single-target and you're better off waiting for TP than single target. And you can use your OGCD abilities between AoE abilities as well.

It's not sustainable in raids, yes, because you don't get to go out of combat between AoE phases, but uhm... that statement just made me go:"Dafuq?" In most of my dungeon runs, an AoE pull is dead before I reach 200 TP.

I mean, it's one thing if your FC mates simply don't want it. But, uhm... you confuse me.

[Jpec07]

The problem I see often with DDs single targeting is that they kill things. This is very bad, especially when everyone else is using AoEs, because a single target DD who is killing weak mobs is effectively doing zero (0) dps.

If a DD needs to switch to single target in order to maintain TP, then that person needs to attack mobs that have the most health. Otherwise, the damage they're doing is merely a substitute for a portion of AoE damage, rather than an addition to it, resulting in a total party DPS that is not much higher than if he was standing there doing nothing.

Can you explain this one a little more? I thought killing things was kind of the goal of a dungeon crawl.

[Tint]

Can you explain this one a little more? I thought killing things was kind of the goal of a dungeon crawl.

if DD 1 needs let's say 10 aoe attacks to kill a whole group, he still needs 10 aoe attacks in the end, even when DD 2 kills some of the enemys with single target attacks.

that means the last enemy dies at the same speed as when DD 2 wasn't even there, because he has never attacked it.

all the dps DD 2 did was worthless in the end, because the 10 aoes of DD 1 would have killed the things anyway.

but if DD 2 would spread his single target attacks around, especially on the enemy with the current highest life, DD 1 would not need 10 aoes anymore, but only 7 and the whole group dies faster.

of course this theory doesn't keep in mind the benefit for tanks and healers, because dead enemys do 0 damage to the tank.

[Neela]

this is what I usually do if all my cds are down -> spamming ruin lll on the mob with the highest lp... the backdrop of this uhm... lets say strategy, is that you might claim the aggro very fast - actually I got used to even spread single dmg skills in mobs on different targets if I see that the tank struggles with the enmity : /

[RopeDrink]

The reverse annoys me more (having no AoE), so you mark priority targets but the DD's decide, hey, I like hitting random things so the mobs are alive longer and can hit the tank for an extra minute. Lowest level examples being bee's in ST [mega-tank bust if left alive and tank can't stun] or those dragon things in SVigil that spew huge AoE periodically - even as just a nuissance it essentially slows the entire kill-process to a halt, much like an ST focused DPS in an AoE environment does (typically because of the next point).

On-topic, yes, avoid what you can. Healer DPS is not negligable - and they can't do this if they have too many reasons to stop doing it. Tanks needing constant heals is a DPS sink if said Healer is giving it their all (ie. not just overhealing or picking their nose when healthbars are full).

[Rongway]

The reverse annoys me more (having no AoE), so you mark priority targets but the DD's decide, hey, I like hitting random things so the mobs are alive longer and can hit the tank for an extra minute. Lowest level examples being bee's in ST

Killing a high priority target because it's a high priority target is fine. Yes, mark bees so they die before the tank does. The rest of this post specifically addresses the times when there is not a particularly dangerous, mechanically important target.


Killing things one at a time for the sake of killing things one at a time is just poor play. Tanks should be using liberal AoE even at early levels, and everyone but LNC has a DoT by 15 that should be applied to pretty much everything before any other single target attack, or an AoE that should be used in lieu of single target attacks.

If everyone is playing to attack the group rather than wasting time killing single targets, the entire group dies faster and there won't be hate issues ever.

The healing requirements in this game are also so low that having the whole group alive for most of the encounter won't have a negative impact on the healer.

Summary
Tanks: AoE
Healers: AoE
AoE DDs: AoE
Single target DDs: DoT everything, then attack thing that has the most health

[Ilan]

Question: How do YOU handle big pulls with lots of AoE with melee DDs in the group?

So in my recent expert dungeon runs, because my healer keeps telling me she's bored, I've been doing the biggest pulls of trash that I can. This isn't too bad in Baelsar's Wall, but in Sohm Al HM, this leads to situations where there is so much AoE going out that, if I want to avoid it, I can never stand still. While this is fine for ranged DDs, melee DDs (especially those with positionals) are going to see a pretty dramatic dip in their output as a result of all that movement. As the enemies are constantly being herded around, they are going to constantly have to run to catch up, and are going to have an even harder time ensuring they are in the right position.

So the question is: how do you handle big pulls that throw out tons of AoE? Do you mitigate and soak the damage? Do you throw a middle finger to the melee DDs and dance around like a Manderville? Do you just avoid huge pulls when there is a melee DD in the group?

I'm still experimenting with the best option, but I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. Discuss!

You make every class with positionals hate you because you try to dodge every avoidable incomming damage like a limbo dancer, because its your job as a tank and dps should aoe anyway. Nothing reason to discuss here.

Edit: Slow down because DRG or NIN are in the group? No reason for that, they deal enough aoe dps to kill the trash in these dungeons.

[Maero]

Normally i like to dodge and get back to the same position asap or use cds. Once the attack is queued up you can be back in the same position even if the animation is not done, there is delays there

[Valenth]

As a Melee DPS myself I always dodge around all the AoE's too, actually finding it fun finding that sweet spot to hit as many as possible while escaping by a hair's breath all the time. So no, please don't eat all the AoE's, you'll die occasionally and that means I'll die, which isn't fun really.

When tanking I usually try to go out and in again after AoE's before mobs start moving too much. I got told by the healer/dps I frequent with while tanking "I don't know how you do it, but it's awesome when you tank. You somehow make them stay in place still while dodging stuff". Might be the extensive DMC/Bayonetta combat training I've had... xP

Edit: Yeah, basically what Maero said above me. If you find that sweet spot of knowing when to move in (at the moment their castbar completes), mobs shouldn't move too much.