PAX EAST: I was the person that asked the "Challenging content" question at the end.

[Remedi]

Honestly the tiered system is creating a mess on WOW already to the point where mythic raiding is dying, can't really see why we should follow that road

[loreleidiangelo]

Honestly the tiered system is creating a mess on WOW already to the point where mythic raiding is dying, can't really see why we should follow that road

Got a source on that? I mean, raiding has always been a niche activity and last I checked WoW raiding numbers looked pretty similar to FFXIV raiding numbers all things considered. I even tried Googling "WoW mythic raiding statistics" and could only find them for the WoD raids, which show a smaller PERCENTAGE of players clearing mythic than XIV players clearing Savage, but translating that to actual number of PLAYERS (eg subscribers), it was about the same amount of people. More people just play WoW so the number is statistically smaller but not numerically smaller.

Is there a Legion mythic armory scrape that shows raiding being on the downslide since then? Got a link?

EDIT: It's also worth noting that a pretty high percentage of players actually clear Heroic difficulty, which is somewhere between XIV's normal mode and Savage mode. That said, their LFR sees a lot more activity than our story mode, showing that their community is more interested in the "concept" of raiding as a whole than ours.

[Laerad3993]

EDIT: It's also worth noting that a pretty high percentage of players actually clear Heroic difficulty, which is somewhere between XIV's normal mode and Savage mode. That said, their LFR sees a lot more activity than our story mode, showing that their community is more interested in the "concept" of raiding as a whole than ours.

I'm sure it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact people could just half ass in there and get free loot that was leagues above anything outside the end game tiers.

I don't believe the "interest in raiding" for a second. It just threw loot at you and 80% of the others could do all the work for you while you auto attacked.

[loreleidiangelo]

I'm sure it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact people could just half ass in there and get free loot that was leagues above anything outside the end game tiers.

Do you support removing Alexander story mode then, and future story modes from all raids, because you believe it dilutes the raiding scene? I'm not exactly sure what the loot has to do with this, as Alexander story actually rewards loot as well, and that loot was the best ilevel you could get before Shire gear, no? It wasn't really faceroll like LFR, but it was still pretty easy, and it still rewarded relevant gear for the time, so taking that into account the clear numbers would be the same, I'd imagine.

A bit more on-topic: what would you like to see the FFXIV team do to improve content, or improve raiding? What precisely do you dislike about raid tiers other than the fact that LFR is painfully faceroll?

[Laerad3993]

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Nice change of subject. I'm not commenting on Alexander story mode. I'm commenting on people wanting garbage tier content in this game to push their agenda to make XIV into WoW, when WoW has, had, and will continue to have many glaring flaws after its glory days.

What I want is irrelevant outside me wanting to NOT play WoW anymore. I dislike exactly what I put in my other post. Fake raiding content where people slack off and don't pull their weight. Sure it happens here, but I'm sorry, I don't want this game to cater to raiding, raiders, and the hardcore. I am tired of that, I played 16-18 hours a day most days when playing WoW. Never again. I was in a guild called Temerity on Windrunner. I raided with Forlorn Legacy, before they broke up and went their own ways. I do not want a game I actually enjoy NOW, to make this into a JOB like WoW did and make me leave.

Yeah tome grinding sucks sometimes. I also dislike some relic steps. But the system as a whole I don't dislike. More fun player engagin options are always welcome for me. I don't want WoW. I don't want XI.

[Laerad3993]

The TC also got it right in everything he stated. The Devs don't get what people want. But the problem is you ALSO have those diehards hiding amongst people who actually want change, pushing the XI and WoW agenda. This I dislike more than anything else. Nostalgia. That's an issue. TC didn't get a proper answer at PAX, because you have the other players stifling proper(good potential) change and muddling up the actual desired outcome with rose tinted goggles.

I'm not against multi tier system raiding. I'm against everything being made into a Job when playing, I'm against terrible LFR content. I'm also against forcing 98% of the player base to deal with the consequences that the vocal minority are causing by confusing people. Nobody knows what anyone wants anymore because the people who do voice things appropriately (TC) get drowned out.

[loreleidiangelo]

Nice change of subject. I'm not commenting on Alexander story mode. I'm commenting on people wanting garbage tier content in this game to push their agenda to make XIV into WoW, when WoW has, had, and will continue to have many glaring flaws after its glory days.

What I want is irrelevant outside me wanting to NOT play WoW anymore. I dislike exactly what I put in my other post. Fake raiding content where people slack off and don't pull their weight. Sure it happens here, but I'm sorry, I don't want this game to cater to raiding, raiders, and the hardcore. I am tired of that, I played 16-18 hours a day most days when playing WoW. Never again. I was in a guild called Temerity on Windrunner. I raided with Forlorn Legacy, before they broke up and went their own ways. I do not want a game I actually enjoy NOW, to make this into a JOB like WoW did and make me leave.

Yeah tome grinding sucks sometimes. I also dislike some relic steps. But the system as a whole I don't dislike. More fun player engagin options are always welcome for me. I don't want WoW. I don't want XI.

It's not a change of subject, though. I mentioned that both are story modes, both have relevant loot options, and yet one game has a higher rate of completion compared to another, suggesting that maybe the community there is more raiding-oriented than it is here, and how that possibly led to multiple difficulty tiers that don't have the same level of interest as they might in this game. /shrug Then I realized it was pretty much a tangent in retrospect to the OP, so I thought I'd ask what you DO want rather than what you DON'T want when it comes to content. And then you simply told me what you don't want anyway.

The sad truth is, there are people that enjoy this game right now, and there are some that don't. For every one of you, there are other people who dislike the same-y aspect of content, the ease of access for pretty much everything outside of EX primals and raiding, and the large focus on glamour/emotes/RP QoL that a lot of people do use, but a lot of people also don't. I'm also not really sure how raiding tiers somehow "forces" you to raid 16-18 hours a day like you did in WoW...that's kind of irrelevant, tbh. No one in this game is forced to do Alexander, not even the story mode. Even adding multiple tiers, I doubt the devs would abandon their love of ease of access, so you can continue to ignore raiding as you do now and play at your own level. And that's a good design, to be frank. But that doesn't mean I won't offer up feedback on how I think more options could be a better thing.

[loreleidiangelo]

Honestly, Sephirot and Nidhogg were a comfortable difficulty. I would love to see another Thordan EX, but the devs seem adamantly opposed to the idea despite it being, in my opinion, the best fight they've ever designed. Although I do like Sophia, she's noticeable step down and Zurvan is a complete mess. I sincerely hope they borrow more from ARR and earlier HW when it comes to content tuning. Creator was good to help balance things out for the raid community however I hate it seems to be at the expensive of harder primals. We need more midcore content, SE, not less. If the normal version equivalents weren't so hilariously easy, this wouldn't be as big an issue.

Which of the ARR primals did you think were excellent in design, out of curiosity? This isn't a "trap post" looking for points to argue, I'm just honestly curious. I tended to judge them based more on music/fun factor/other subjective things that weren't necessarily the quality of their fight design, lol.

I'm torn about Thordan, tbh. On the one hand it was super fun and engaging, but on the other hand failure rate was insanely high and even simple slip-ups were pretty much a wipe. I think margins-of-error are a good thing in EX primals and Thordan was lacking those in a lot of ways. Nidhogg I liked as a healer - there was a decent amount to heal comparatively (to the rest of the game), and occasional derps could still be recovered if heals were on-point.

[Laerad3993]

.

Oh good to know if you enjoy the game you're lumped in with the non EX and Non raider group. I've done both, and every EX to date, some hundreds of times. Thank you for marginalizing me based on the fact I don't want the game raid centric.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Which of the ARR primals did you think were excellent in design, out of curiosity? This isn't a "trap post" looking for points to argue, I'm just honestly curious. I tended to judge them based more on music/fun factor/other subjective things that weren't necessarily the quality of their fight design, lol.

I'm torn about Thordan, tbh. On the one hand it was super fun and engaging, but on the other hand failure rate was insanely high and even simple slip-ups were pretty much a wipe. I think margins-of-error are a good thing in EX primals and Thordan was lacking those in a lot of ways. Nidhogg I liked as a healer - there was a decent amount to heal comparatively (to the rest of the game), and occasional derps could still be recovered if heals were on-point.

I would necessarily call them excellent design. Visually and even mechanically you could make a strong case Heavenwards did Primals better. From a difficulty perspective though, I actually enjoy Ramuh and Titan. Both were extremely punishing... if you messed up their mechanics yet had the margin for error you mentioned. Honestly, I simply find them harder if you actually sync down whereas Heavenward Primals gradually became easier. To answer your earlier question about how to improve these fights. I'd like to see more tank swapping mechanics, higher outgoing damage and certain mechanics that pull the DPS from simply tunneling the boss. What I love about Thordan is the high damage but the demand you know how to play your job and the need for raid awareness. Even going back just a couple days ago at full 270, he's still an absolute blast. Perhaps tone down his insta-kill mechanics, but he really ought to be their template. The issue, at least in my opinion, is how easier the hard mode equivalents are. They do nothing to actually teach players and prepare them for harder content. Zurvan HM should be an opener task while Zurvan should be putting what you already know into practice.

That all said, if they went back to Nidhogg or Sephiroth. I'd be more than happy. Much as I adore Sophia. She started a trend I hope doesn't continue into Stormblood.