How do ascians come into existence?

[Sylvain]

I'll roughly translate this French theory which when shown to Yoshida made him smile and reply "You're very clever"
As a side note, this was posted before HW (in 2013). And you'd be surprised how much this dude nailed so many things right.

https://stormffxiv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2052

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We know that Asciens are Zodiarchs subjects, a superior entity, but that's all we technically know.
So to know more about them, we need to know more about Zodiarch.

Zodiarque is inspired by FFXII world of Ivalice. To better understand we need to dive into Ivalice lore and more especially, the espers.

Ivalice Scions: In XII, the espers (scions) have been created by the Occurias, old mighty beings. They created 24 espers.
Every sign of the Zodiac got 2 scions. One standing for the Darkness, one for the Light. On top of that, each Zodiaque sign is tied to an element (fire, water, wind, poison etc etc)
This is the case for every sign but the Snake and Virgo.

In fact, the esper Ultima from the Virgo sign and the esper Zodiarche from the Snake sign are both scions or both Light and Darkness.
It is also worth noting that the esper Ultima has the element of light and the esper Zodiarch has the element of Darkness.
So they're both unique, opposed and complementary in this regard. THey're also the most powerful espers in the world of Ivalice.

in the lore of FFXII, Ultima, always more proud of his rank and incredible power starts considering himself superior to his creators and rebel against the Occurias with the aid of all the scions of Darkness.
They were however defeated and Ultima, with the 11 scions of darkness that followed him, were sealed by the gods.
To prevent event to occur again, they also sealed Zodiarque who, even tho he didn't rebel, had enough power to do so and could be a potential threat.

The 13 scions were sealed into glyph. It is through those glyph the player summon them.
glyph picture from the website

So here we are, 11 espers of darkness + 2 super espers are sealed and recoverable by the player. However, the 11 espers of light which are opposed to those we know in FF11, do exist, but we never encounter them. So they're not in the game, but in the lore and they technically still exist.

So? What's the link between FF12 and the asciens (beside the announce of Return to Ivalice for Stormblood...)
So I've decided to deep into the lore of each esper and their origin.
Mateus case was especially intriguing.
(Mateus - Fish like bosss with spear picture)
Mateus, esper of the Pisces zodiac sign. So it is the Sion of Darkness of Pisces sign.
Let's take a look at the seal in which he's been trapped.

Look at the zoom picture + rotation

Look at the Ascien with the same sign

So, it could be a coincidence right? But it's not.
In the lore of FF12, under Pisces two scions were born, one light one dark. Mateus son of darkness and.... Lahabrea... son of light.

Lahabrea is the name given to the scion of light under the Pisces sign
Pastaroth is the name given to the scion of light under the Cancer sign
Igeyorhm is the name given to the scion of light under the Sagittaria sign
Nabriales is the name given to the scion of light under the Scopio sign.

What can we draw from this?
Not much except that the Asciens come from a superior entity. Are they the Scions themselves?

Even tho they're Scions of light in FF12, they're on the Darkness side in FF14. Are they the equivalent 12 darkness version of the god of Eorzea? Are they god, projections of gods?
Did Hydaelyn give birth to the 12 Eoezean gods and Zodiarche to the 12 Asciens?


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Again, this was posted in 2013.
Then at page 4, he posts
Starting after Elidibus picture
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This dude is Elidibus, unlike Lahabrea Igeyorhm, Nabriales and Pashtarot, his name isn't one of the scion of light.
But he does said he's a mediator wereas Lahabrea is a warrior.
However his name doesn't come out of nowhere. It appears in another game tied to the Ivalice world. FF Tactic is a legendary wizard who posess the serpent zodiac stone, 13th sign of the zodiac. This stone allows him to transform into a demon called Lucavi, a snake-like demon.

Also remember that minfilia doesn't see them in their true form. Could their be a link?

Also, the Snake sign is Zodiarch sign. the "True god" of the asciens. However, if Lahabrea wears the name of the Light Pisces scion, Elidibus isn't a sscion. He's very different (and white). However, he's still able to summon Zodiark in FFT even though he's not an ascien.

So we talked about Lucavi, but what are those? We said that in Ivalice lore, each Zodiac sign has two entity, one light one dark except two signs, virgo and serpent which only have one representative, Virgo and Serpent (Ultima and Zodiark)
But on top of that, each sign has a Lucavi, a demon which in FFT are the equivalent to FF12 espers. But again in this case, Virgo and Serpent are exceptions the Serpent Lucavi isn't Zodiark itself, but Elidibus.

Back to FF14.
Elidibus in FFT can summon Zodiark, he is the Serpent Lucavi (13th sign).
In the main scenario quest, at some point we must fight 4 Asciens under his command and they both have the same kind of glyph mark on their face.
Since I found the glyph of Lahabrea hidden in Mateus, I decided to seek if Elidibus minion's glyph could be in the glyph of an Esper (especially Zodiark glyph, since everything seems conneted beyond "simple coincidence")

Unfortunately, the only identical part is the small symbal in the middle. Which could be too small to be a proof in itself. Well too bad, maybe there's a link, maybe there isn't.

...
...
...

You didn't truly believe that the scolar that I am would stop there didn't you?

--- next picture ---

The pattern on the minion face is quite similar to Zodiarc first form in FF12. We can clearly distinguish the basic form of his body. Now let's add the small identical sign and again, coincidence start to pill up pretty quickly.

So everything seems to point that Zodiark and Elidibus have a strong bound in a way or another. However, he does say that he doesn't have the same vision than the others who worship Zodiark.

I believe that he doesn't know stuff that other Asciens don't and he doesn't seem willing to enlight them.

--- he quotes some passage from the main scenario ---
Hydaelyn isn't only the name of the planet. It's an entire character.
If you consider Hydaelyn as a complete character, Zodiark is for the Ascien what Hydaelyn is to us.
But their true god is Zodiark, and they badly try to summon him.
Could Zodiark be the physical manifestation of the Dark crystal? If that Dark crystal can be summoned as Zodiark, could Hydaelyn also be summoned and acquire a physical form?

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That recall me some interesting lore we got in 3.4
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Finally, last page he said he has shown some pictures (like the glyph stuff) to Yoshida and Yoshida replied him with a smile after some analysis

"you're very clever"



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End of the translation

I can't find if he posted a follow up

[Cilia]

<stuff, thangs>

Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything in there what's not been considered or discussed before.

Savvy players have long figured out that the Ascians take their names from the Scions of Light in Ivalice mythology, that their glyphs are inverted fragments of their corresponding Esper's (Scion of Darkness') glyph, and that Elidibus takes his name from the wizard in Tactics who held the Ophiuchus (Zodiark's) stone.

While many take this as a sign of a concrete connection between Ivalice and Hydaelyn, it's been iterated time and again that is not so. Until we have proof there is a link between Ivalice and Hydaelyn, all the names and references are purely fanservice. (And if such a thing does happen, I'm calling shenanigans.)

We do know that Zodiark is either sealed in or literally is the moon, and He created the Ascians at some point in time. When is a very important question, I believe, but that has not yet been answered. The question here, though, is "How?" and we already know how - Zodiark made them.

[Sylvain]

snip.

Oh I know this has been figured out long ago.
The post I translated was from 2013.

It was mostly to give more infromation to the thread owner.

However, I personally believe there is a strong connection.
The next raid is called "Return to Ivalice" and in a recent interview, Yoshida said that it isn't an hommage to FF12 which means there is link. Ivalice lore is somehow connected to FF14 lore.
I mean, if only the name were connected it could simply be an easter.
But the amount connection between these two game is just outstanding.
3.4, with the revelation of FF14 multi-verse, also point in that direction.

The fact that one of the ascien has Lightning face can be considered as fan service.
They litterally based the name, origine, appearance and lore structure on FF12.
It can't just be "fan service".

[Anonymoose]

The next raid is called "Return to Ivalice" and in a recent interview, Yoshida said that it isn't an hommage to FF12 which means there is link. Ivalice lore is somehow connected to FF14 lore. <...> It can't just be "fan service".

Q55: There are a lot of names from Ivalice such as Dalmasca, Belias, and Zodiak that have been mentioned, is there some connection between Hydaelyn and Ivalice?

A55: To be absolutely clear, there is no connection between FFXIV’s Hydaelyn and FFXII’s Ivalice. Likewise there is no connection with FFXI’s Vana’diel. Each are their own individual world. Based on this, there are connections between the things that appear in the world, and we’ll be revealing more in the future.

That's a pretty clear and definitive claim to go back on. I would develop trust issues, lol.

[Sylvain]

http://www.dualshockers.com/2017/03/...ments-paladin/

DS: There has been a lot of speculation about the name of the new raid “Return to Ivalice.” Is the name just homage to Yasumi Matsuno who will design the raid, or there is more to it?

NY: It’s definitely not an homage. It also depends on how the players will interpret it when they’ll actually enter the raid. In terms of the world of Ivalice, and whether or not it is connected to the realm of Final Fantasy XIV, it’s still a mystery, and that’s something that you will have to enjoy while playing the scenario.

What do you think?

Of course, I'm assuming we're actually going to Ivalice... And if we go there, why wouldn't there be a connection? Also, wouldn't it be weird to feature the main raid of an expansion as "side content for fun who has no connection with the lore"

[Zojha]

That's a pretty clear and definitive claim to go back on. I would develop trust issues, lol.

It is, but on the other hand: We already had more than one visitor from Vana'diel, namely Shattoto and Iroha. In that sense, they've already gone back on that, as a cross-over requires some form of connection.

Whether it gets further than that remains to be seen. Could well be they go all like:"Evil guy X is creating a hole to another dimension, we gotta follow and stop him!" -> Venture to Ivalice in a similar way, except with a return option.

Personally, I ain't got the faintest. But it does seem like they're going to go back on that in one way or the other.

[Anonymoose]

We already had more than one visitor from Vana'diel, namely Shattoto and Iroha. <...> Could well be they go all like:"Evil guy X is creating a hole to another dimension, we gotta follow and stop him!" -> Venture to Ivalice in a similar way, except with a return option.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm with you. I tend to interpret things conservatively (e.g. good theories are just as likely to be unanticipated houses of cards as they are reliable conclusions, so I wait for citations), but I'm with you. Why am I hesitant here? Because even Lightning Returns seemed to make the lore team flinch a bit, lol.

This plays into one layer of separation I try to keep in my own personal understanding of the canon. Even XIV-specific holiday events feel a "layer-up" from the concrete in-world canon, so to speak. Sometimes greater truths outside of the holiday bubbles are revealed within them, but overall they're also less plausible, sillier, and time passes differently within them. ("I'm so glad you joined us on this day, the third anniversary of the Calamity being five years ago.") It's not dissimilar to Hildibrand or the Relic chains (which the lore team has said in the past might not always make sense, might not always follow the rules, but you can decide for yourself how canon they are). Sometimes they're not the ones who decide that something is happening, they're just assigned to make it work as well as they can.

Until now, this seems to have been handled by assigning blame, lol. Rather than opting Hydaelyn into the Interdissidomegamesh Rift multiverse, they blamed it on the other game making room in its canon for XIV. Shantotto, Buhnivelze, Nybeth, Altana, and Nohi the Wandering Executive were the ones breaking the rules and opting-in. They just arrived somehow, and left things as they found them on the way out.

So, no - there is nothing stopping Yasumi Matsuno from opting XII into XIV.
He could easily create something inherent to XII's universe that allows it to transcend into ours without opting Hydaelyn into anything.

There's just not the same precedent for it (YET!) on this level - the hard canon story arc level. Crystal Tower didn't literally bring us to Final Fantasy III. The Warring Triad literally didn't bring us to Final Fantasy VI. Hydaelyn already has its own Dalmasca that is totally not that Dalmasca. And now we have (seemingly) contradictory statements that Ivalice is completely independent of Final Fantasy XIV but definitely not an homage in its 4.0 appearance.

It can go still go any way. Really, I'm just holding the front line so I still know where it is when we put the new flags down, lol. The community collective unconscious forgetting that something has been fanon all along is the worst.

[Cilia]

It is, but on the other hand: We already had more than one visitor from Vana'diel, namely Shattoto and Iroha. In that sense, they've already gone back on that, as a cross-over requires some form of connection.

In general, there is a faint connection between all Final Fantasy worlds through the Interdimensional Rift. This is how Gilgamesh appears time and again and, unlike most recurring elements of the franchise, is the exact same being who appeared in V. More than Shantotto and Iroha have appeared in Eorzea thanks to that - Gilgamesh, Ultros, and Lightning have all made visits.

However, having characters from other games appear in temporary events is quite a different thing to having Hydaelyn linked to the Ivalice. Grafting one setting, or a facsimile thereof, into another sends up some red flags for me. The interdimensional rift angle is even worse.

That's not to say XIV Ivalice is or will be the Ivalice, or a facsimile thereof, or that we will be going to the Ivalice. I'm still holding to the "wait and see" approach. However, with it having been said before there is no link between Ivalice and Hydaelyn, and now Yoshi-P's saying it's not just an homage... alarm bells are ringing.