As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Lambdafish]

That is incorrect. Both healers are able to dps. Optimal play with two healers is basically the same as optimal play with two tanks. For tanks, you utilize tank swaps and CDs as necessary so that both tanks can spend as much time as possible in dps stance. For healers, both healers should use the heals they have which are more appropriate for the situation so that both can stay in cleric stance as much as possible.One thing I've learned recently is that the whole mt/ot and mh/oh thing isn't the best way to go in this game. "Shared responsibilities" provides better results. However, I've noticed that many people are just incapable of doing this. From personal experience, it seems that it's not a lack of skill, it's just a lot of people refuse to accept the fact that the "mt" and the "mh" can contribute to dps as well.

You are correct, however that doesn't make me incorrect, as I already mentioned this. You are still acting like the argument is black and white, and it is far from it.

What you are describing is pro level optimal play (the difficulty of achieving which is subjective, but we can at least concede that this is how expert healers play), and it is not essential that healers at all levels conform to this to be a valid member of the party. My idea of MH/OH wasn't intended to represent the best way to heal, but rather to give inexperienced raid healers like Feyona an idea of how raid DPS can be co-ordinated easily between the two healers. The type of healing you are describing comes with experience, muscle memory, and knowledge of fights and there is no way that it can be achieved as an ameteur healer who doesn't know the fight.

As an example, I would compare this level of play to WARs and DRKs who can MT in DPS stance, something which is not essential, but will mark you as a good tank. On the flipside, a tank who OTs in tank stance, and doesn't utilise their full toolkit (WAR not using storms eye/path, a DRK not using darkside/dark arts, and a PLD not using goring blade) is the equivilent of a healer who idles when they should be doing something. There is a middle ground, in fact there is a whole spectrum of middle grounds that label you as anything from an average healer to an amazing healer.

In any content, if you know what you're doing you'll have time to dps. If you don't know what you're doing you probably won't be dpsing, or if you are people are dying. Just like in dungeons, you have to learn when you need to heal and when you can dps in raids. Sounds pretty black and white to me.

You'll notice I already said this:

but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't DPS when they can, only that they won't get many opportunities too.

to which I should add "and the more someone knows the fight, the more opportunities you will find", however this should not be forced on a healer by another member of the party, and even less someone on the forums, as these moments are found through practice and an in depth knowledge of their role.

[Feyona]

Then you shouldn't be DPSing, the SCH should. That is the pro DPS argument in raid, one person handles healing, one person DPSes and heals when they need


Pretty sure if I die as a main tank, then the party wipes. You think that we don't have pressure in our jobs?



We are talking about savage raid content, not dungeons. The argument isn't black and white.

I would never say that tanks dont have pressure, or healers, and even dps have pressure in statics to get their rotations and openers right. All Im saying is we dont need the added pressure of cleric when content is already potentially stressful. And some simply dont understand that you dont always have the space. Perhaps though the tank dps is a little more predictable, whereas no one knows when someone will need healing or if a tank will mess up.Like Ive already said Iwould never stand around. I think parsers show my activity around 95% . I do over heal but most of that is from regens and thats 70% of my overheal. I think you are right in your above comment too, about experts and average

[Lambdafish]

All Im saying is we dont need the added pressure of cleric when content is already potentially stressful.

In the example that I outlined, cleric stance is pretty equivilent to tank stances, as I explained to Hoodrat above "I would compare this level of play to WARs and DRKs who can MT in DPS stance, something which is not essential, but will mark you as a good tank", this can be directly compared to cleric, where the off-healer (in your case, the SCH ideally) is in cleric unless they are needed for intense healing, and the main-healer stays in heal stance (i.e. no cleric). If you are exceptional, or there is a gap for it, then the main healer can drop into cleric stance, exactly as the above example shows with tanks, but you should not do this until very comfortable with the content, and very aware of your limitations.

So no, cleric stance should not be removed unless they are overhauling and improving the entire stance system in general.

[Feyona]

In the example that I outlined

So no, cleric stance should not be removed unless they are overhauling and improving the entire stance system in general.

As ive said Im not opposed to healer dps whoever wants to. I would like to see healing more valued or respected though. I would like a choice of dpsing or not for the sake of enjoyment, but if healers dps stays then would like cleric changed into something that makes it not so stress inducing. There could be many different ways of doing this, like not having a cd or even making dps part of the job without stance changing. Other games havent got this 'awkward' mechanic. Its awkward because it was never intended to be used like it is.

[Deliciou5]

As ive said Im not opposed to healer dps whoever wants to. I would like to see healing more valued or respected though. I would like a choice of dpsing or not for the sake of enjoyment, but if healers dps stays then would like cleric changed into something that makes it not so stress inducing. There could be many different ways of doing this, like not having a cd or even making dps part of the job without stance changing. Other games havent got this 'awkward' mechanic. Its awkward because it was never intended to be used like it is.

All i see is that you don't enjoy it, it seems like healer is not for you. Since there is very little justification for not dpsing in most forms of content. I just ran expert earlier today and more often than not my heal over times were enough to keep the tank and party alive, i threw about 20 cures total throughout dungeon and once in a while used a cooldown. It was ridiculously easy to not heal as much. Cleric stance is barely noticed by me anymore since iv'e become so used to using it. Things are only awkward or unwieldy if you are not good at it from a lack of practice.

Until SE changes the meta for healers where Heals per seconds are more demanding and buffs/debuffs become way more efficient than damage...then i don't see the importance of doing damage while minimally healing going away any time soon. You just gotta own up to the fact that if you don't try to end the battle as quickly as possible using all your toolkit then you are objectively sub-optimal, if not bad at your job.

SE designed healers this way because a lot of mmo's had healers have dps abilities to fill their time with something more than healing. The game isn't designed for heals to be in much demand like the more slowly paced battles of mmo yonder years. I played FFXI and as whm in that game i was mostly curing,praying for mana,hasting everyone and MAYBE throwing a dia or 2 when i had the chance, however the design of that game was for everything to be much harder and slower paced, this game is inherently designed to spam as many abilities as possible and be far less tactical overall.

Doing more damage is always the most efficient thing to do in almost any situation. Until SE overhauls and redesigns the battle system from the ground up and makes it less about dps, this will always be the meta. There is no Crowd control, or anything else for healers to do that is required or necessary to complete battles. Just throw some HOT's up and throw the occasional instant heal CD or cure at tank or dumbass party member who doesn't know how to dodge, then sit in cleric stance for 80-90% of the fight. However savage and exetreme primals have different approaches and require more tatics and teamwork, thats why you seen in my previous posts how there is more planning and nuance involved in the healing. For most post level 45 content though, it's always better to dps and use your full tookit to mitigate dmg to create larger windows for it.

It's not awkward if you actually just do it all the time and get used to it, and don't try to find emotional reasons or BS excuses to not do it more often than not. If you are playing your healer correctly then you won't be spamming heals(unless things go wrong), and you won't be standing around for 90% of the fight unless you are trying to build up some MP for the next pull.

[Lambdafish]

I would like a choice of dpsing or not for the sake of enjoyment

This just isn't how healing works in this game though, as a tank I also need to watch my DPS output because it is a secondary responsibility that helps the party. I have explained above that you can be a primary healer and your job is specifically to heal and generate gaps for your SCH to DPS, because ultimately that is you assisting in your secondary role as well as your primary, but at the end of the day, you do have an obligation in a raid party to perform well, regardless of whether or not you enjoy DPSing or not. You have the option to be the main healer, which is the role that I think you will stick to, but healer DPS won't magically go away.

[Seoulstar]

All i see is that you don't enjoy it, it seems like healer is not for you. Since there is very little justification for not dpsing in most forms of content.

I'm sorry but how does that even make the slightest bit of sense? Someone doesn't want to do a secondary role, so that means the primary role is not for them...how does one even make such a conclusion? Let alone, the truth is this. The reason healers have offensive spells is for progression. I don't think you can go through solo content with heals alone. People can try to justify dpsing as a healer, but at least be logical with it.

[Feyona]

All i see is that you don't enjoy it, it seems like healer is not for you. Since there is very little justification for not dpsing in most forms of content.

Your speech is fine, and agree for the most part but we wernt talking about dungeons, up to the point where you say emotions etc are bs. Unless you are a robot weve all got them. Look over the posts and you will see that many people have some kind of emotional responses to different aspects of the game. This game was not orignally designed for cleric to be used the way it is, its the coms idea. Thats why in some instances theres an issue with it, and some healers are worried about cleric.'I can do it so its fine' attitude isnt for everyone. Humility is much more likeable than 'Im better than you'

[Lambdafish]

I'm sorry but how does that even make the slightest bit of sense? Someone doesn't want to do a secondary role, so that means the primary role is not for them...how does one even make such a conclusion? Let alone, the truth is this. The reason healers have offensive spells is for progression. I don't think you can go through solo content with heals alone. People can try to justify dpsing as a healer, but at least be logical with it.

Yes... SCH has rouse for progression.......... that skill that opens gaps in healing........ on a DoT healer that can heal while the DoTs tick.......... purely for progression.........

I don't even have the energy to explain (yet again) why this is wrong, but I'm sure someone else will enlighten you.

[Feyona]

Yes... SCH has rouse for progression.......... that skill that opens gaps in healing........ on a DoT healer that can heal while the DoTs tick.......... purely for progression.........

I don't even have the energy to explain (yet again) why this is wrong, but I'm sure someone else will enlighten you.

Scholar is a shield healer, thats all, it needs extra raw healing at times. Although I can see your point about all those dots and the arcanist build we cant que as dps. Oh I think maybe the thought behind arcanist is that you can choose dps (summoner) or healer. Its the only class you can have that choice when you levelled it. I prefer to think that SE wanted players to have choice but I could be wrong. At any rate it needs dps for solo stuff.