Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

On that very same end, you could criticize the fact that Healer DPS is not actually balanced for this game properly and that the content in this game has leeway in that you can actually DPS and Heal in dungeons, despite it not being intentional to this extreme.

This whole argument is based around a Role design becoming something it wasn't intended to be outright (Healer DPS potency in dungeons). That's why I always feel odd about getting fussed with people who don't. I feel it really comes down to impatience and intolerance of other play styles IMO in an oddly balanced game.

Omitting healer DPS from damage calculations makes it so dedicated DPS roles can meet required checks. A common complaint with Gordias Savage was it being literally impossible for DPS jobs to perform their role. In theory, this type of design allows the devs to experiment with non-DPS mechanics ala Refurbisher. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean you should be standing still. People fuss over it due to that reason alone. Take Zurvan EX. There are only two instances of heavy damage throughout the entire fight: the second add phase and Tyrfing. If both healers exclusively heal, one or both of you will find portions of the fight where you're waiting or simply doing nothing. Now this obviously does not account for potential mistakes along the way, but you should adjust to the mistakes as they happen or anticipate where someone might mess up. If we don't skip Soar, I'll drop Cleric on the chance people will screw up positions. Otherwise, whenever I off heal, I only drop Cleric to toss up secondary heals (Medica II) or if someone gets a bleed debuff, couldn't get into position for Biting Halberd and etc.

Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. The game simply doesn't deal enough damage to warrant consistent healing nor is it reactionary to incentivising waiting for the next "big hit" as it's entirely predictable. Impatience isn't necessarily a factor. Once you start approaching higher level content, the expectation from players increases for everyone. Higher damage output allows for mechanic skips. Without healer DPS, it requires a higher ilvl and near perfect performance from your damage dealers and tanks to skip Lapis in A11S. People want to push those phases because once you've beaten the fight a couple times, that's where the enjoyment comes: seeing what you can skip and optimizing. Something to keep in mind is my emphasis on tanks and damage dealers. They have to perform optimally to skip Lapis. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Omitting healer DPS from damage calculations makes it so dedicated DPS roles can meet required checks. A common complaint with Gordias Savage was it being literally impossible for DPS jobs to perform their role. In theory, this type of design allows the devs to experiment with non-DPS mechanics ala Refurbisher.

That in itself very clearly shows why it isn't necessary by design. And for the Gordias bit, even the devs mentioned they executed that incorrectly.

Nevertheless, it doesn't mean you should be standing still. People fuss over it due to that reason alone. Take Zurvan EX. There are only two instances of heavy damage throughout the entire fight: the second add phase and Tyrfing. If both Healers exclusively heal, one or both of you will find portions of the fight where you're waiting or simply doing nothing. Now this obviously does not account for potential mistakes along the way, but you should adjust to the mistakes as they happen or anticipate where someone might mess up. If we don't skip Soar, I'll drop Cleric on the chance people will screw up positions. Otherwise, whenever I off heal, I only drop Cleric to toss up secondary heals (Medica II) or if someone gets a bleed debuff, couldn't get into position for Biting Halberd and etc.

I've played this game a considerable amount of hours, hell I've been playing since FFXIV 1.0 beta, but since that's besides the point I want to talk about how I've never witnessed someone literally doing nothing. There are moments where a Healer "stands still", but you literally cannot get away with that for too long unless you are doing unsynced content. You have to Cure eventually, or use Cure II, watch your MP, watch the people in your party, watch the mechanics. I feel the "standing still" thing people say often is rather cynical. They are doing their job, they are healing you and the party. There may be brief a gap of seconds where an action isn't taking place, but Healer is something you play in real time or else the party whipes. The focus is there regardless if this occurs or not.

Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. The game simply doesn't deal enough damage to warrant consistent healing nor is it reactionary to incentivising waiting for the next "big hit" as it's entirely predictable. Impatience isn't necessarily a factor. Once you start approaching higher level content, the expectation from players increases for everyone. Higher damage output allows for mechanic skips. Without healer DPS, it requires a higher ilvl and near perfect performance from your damage dealers and tanks to skip Lapis in A11S. People want to push those phases because once you've beaten the fight a couple times, that's where the enjoyment comes: seeing what you can skip and optimizing. Something to keep in mind is my emphasis on tanks and damage dealers. They have to perform optimally to skip Lapis. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?

You say that the game doesn't do enough damage to warrant it, but what if that is also by design? What if that is there as a threshold so that more people can play the Healer class and not be overwhelmed?

As for the Dark Side part, I'm going to vehemently disagree. I'm a DRK main, and Dark Side is practically required to Tank due to the damage mitigation and damage required for keeping aggro. Dark Side is so explicitly designed in DRK's kit for tanking that it's not comparable to Cleric Stance which directly hinders a Healer's kit and has no actual follow ups between any job's moves. It makes you do more damage, but it's not integral to your healing or buffing abilities. It's very basic and clearly meant to be there for Main Scenario play and FATEs. To be honest, with the way it's designed, it probably was made that way just so you wouldn't use it in a dungeon. Seems like a rather odd thing to add if they wanted us to DPS.

And for the main part, wanting someone to play optimally and trying to shame or force someone into playing optimally are not the same thing. You are referring to raids here, where usually the more hardcore/maniac type players give it their all optimizing as much as possible to win. You can very well create a Party Finder and ensure the Healer's that join are doing DPS for this content.

In other words, you set the rules of your own party, but the Duty Finder is anything goes and tolerance and acceptance of all play styles (to a reasonable degree) will go much further towards peace and entertainment than getting annoyed at "suboptimal" players.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

partial snip-Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?

I rarely see bards sing anyway and i can't tell the difference. It's not even needed most of the time. And just to open another can of worms and dump it all over the floor to be smeared around with the already ridiculous healer dps back and forth going on, the vast majority of tanks I play with don't stance dance either. They stay purely in tank stance and that's it. Works just fine unless there's a tank swap involved, which there rarely is, so I don't see the problem with tanks not stance dancing either. Yes I believe healers should be able to stand around and not dps if they want as long as they keep everyone alive and tanks and dps should just sea with it. If they want to stand around too then they should roll healer.

TL;DR I'm fine with others putting forth the bare minimum and playing the game casually. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

[Freyt]

They stay purely in tank stance and that's it.

You know, I'm fine with my tank staying purely in an attack stance, just as long as it doesn't result in a wipe or a KO. I hold out as long as possible before I tell my tank to switch to their aggro stance. If we can progress either way, then I'll let them play how they want. It'll be an interesting experience at least, and they're more likely to willingly listen to me to begin with if it's already after things have gone wrong.

The only time I really expect my team to put up or shut up is something that really requires you to put forth that amount of effort.

[Kit-Kat]

I rarely see bards sing anyway and i can't tell the difference. It's not even needed most of the time. And just to open another can of worms and dump it all over the floor to be smeared around with the already ridiculous healer dps back and forth going on, the vast majority of tanks I play with don't stance dance either. They stay purely in tank stance and that's it. Works just fine unless there's a tank swap involved, which there rarely is, so I don't see the problem with tanks not stance dancing either. Yes I believe healers should be able to stand around and not dps if they want as long as they keep everyone alive and tanks and dps should just sea with it. If they want to stand around too then they should roll healer.

TL;DR I'm fine with others putting forth the bare minimum and playing the game casually. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

By giving them a pat on the back for being lazy you're just promoting it, but then everyone complains when the norm is to be as lazy as you can, refusing to improve and getting rejected/kicked from parties because people expected more than you've been whiteknighted for before that point. 24 man easy raids being a complete chaos wipefest because why would I care, 23 other people will work for it (or so they think). Oh those filthy elites asking to skip soar! my icemage rotation won't work there, how could they! they're not teaching new players!

[BigRed5392]

snip

ice mages don't exist, Stop using that as an argument. No one is promoting laziness... Promoting harassment is not good. I rather people focus on their main role instead of near wiping other going beyond. I've seen lazy healers who just dps.

Hate to say, but 24 man raids are a wipe fest because of disorganization. No one leads, people don't communicate. There is no set way to do it.

good players are the people who do their role well:healers healing and raising people, tanks tanking, dps dealing damage.

imo the "moar dps" is more of a lazy mindset then "healers should dps" mindset is.

Sorry but please take a step back and re-read this, as it is a lame reply, that comes off as vindictive.

[Kit-Kat]

ice mages don't exist, Stop using that as an argument. No one is promoting laziness... Promoting harassment is not good. I rather people focus on their main role instead of near wiping other going beyond. I've seen lazy healers who just dps.

Icemages do exist, just not as often. I would have used another term, but now that would have upset many people. Yes, they're promoting laziness by defending lazy gameplay insead of accepting criticism. Who is promoting harassment? Or a better question, what do you consider as harassment? Calling someone out is not harassment, depending on how they do it though.

Hate to say, but 24 man raids are a wipe fest because of disorganization. No one leads, people don't communicate. There is no set way to do it.

24 man raids are a mess because people are careless as it's a zergfest and other people will pick up the slack, ignoring every mechanic. Not even talking about newbies here. You don't need communication nor someone leading you to dodge a red and blatant telegraph or ignoring repeated dungeon/raids mechanics, which is just common mechanics in basically through the entire game.

good players are the people who do their role well:healers healing and raising people, tanks tanking, dps dealing damage.

Good players are the one that take time to optimize the maximum of their kit, no matter the role depending on the situation. If you decide to ignore your job's skills when you have nothing else to do but stand still and dance just because of a role name, you're doing it wrong.

imo the "moar dps" is more of a lazy mindset then "healers should dps" mindset is.

When everything is based on making an enemy's HP reach 0, how is "moar dps mindset" lazy? I'm really curious what your term of being lazy is, after all your posts mentioning it.