Korean fan fest translation says ast changes balanced healers, do you agree?

[Yuyuka3]

snip

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was talking to you at that point - it was more toward the AST mains that just close eyes and ears and pretend everything's fine and balanced than anyone in particular.

I never played 11, but I heared of the problem WHM had there and it actually makes me very sad because history repeating itself just proves to me that the people at SE are either unable to learn from their past mistakes, don't communicate between development teams, or just plain don't care. But, yes, of course people feel very strongly in the face of party finders like 'Midcore raid looking for SCH and AST for A12S and SB'. Or all those Zurvan groups wanting AST/SCH or only one of those healers (mainly AST because BALANCE), be it for speed runs or just because they don't want to bother with a crutch in the team. Just like when AST was left behind, which wasn't great, either. It's never nice to be shunned from content because your class doesn't bring as much to the table as the others.

[Ghishlain]

I never played 11, but I heared of the problem WHM had there and it actually makes me very sad because history repeating itself...

I just want to add a small correction here - WHMs in the current iteration of XI are actually very much desired. No one can heal harder or faster in the game than WHM. They weren't desirable in an era pre-Abyssea because they had no strong MP sustainability but after the advent of (1) Afflatus Solace (2) Empyrean Legs and Empyrean Body (3) Large amount of incoming AoE damage and status effects - NOTHING can keep up with how hard WHM can heal and status mitigation and how long they can maintain that healing power for.

RDMs were considered the better healers prior to this time frame because damage of lower incoming damage, infinite MP, and high enfeebling power thus they were desirable for an all-in-one healing + support package. I will admit, I've had LFP flag up for 8-hours at one point on WHM and got not a single party invite for EXP in the 30+ range during the era of "RDM HEALER OR NOTHING", lol. Ah well. Those were in the past now xD

I just bring this up because just like XI, XIV will have jobs that will be considered inferior and jobs that will be considered superior. This wave will come as expansions and balances are pushed out and the one thing I can respect about S-E's dev team is the viability of every single standard composition to clear any content - just some composition will have an easier and/or faster time at clearing it due to the imbalanced kit. I dislike how much of a gulf there is between AST and WHM but at least all three healers are viable unlike how it was with AST back at 3.0 inception where ASTs were outright ostracized from participation. At least WHMs will still be considered in the current iteration even if they are less desirable than AST.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

I'd just want to slip in that this was primarily for merit point parties (or meripo). Back in the days White mages were still very desired for endgame content. Just not for the exp grind after hitting level cap. This applied to Paladins too and heavily favoured certain jobs depending on the area. In particular Bards were almost mandatory when you're in a group full of strangers.

As for the exp parties to get to said level cap, it kind of depends on the level range and area. Due to getting some spells and abilities at certain levels (like Refresh/haste), Red Mage became significantly more desired from that point onwards

[Ghishlain]

I'd just want to slip in that this was primarily for merit point parties (or meripo). Back in the days White mages were still very desired for endgame content. Just not for the exp grind after hitting level cap. This applied to Paladins too and heavily favoured certain jobs depending on the area. In particular Bards were almost mandatory when you're in a group full of strangers.

As for the exp parties to get to said level cap, it kind of depends on the level range and area. Due to getting some spells and abilities at certain levels (like Refresh/haste), Red Mage became significantly more desired from that point onwards

This is true. If anything XI had quite a lot and differing horror stories and stigmas when you involve the farming of EXP. RDM or bust was pretty much how it goes for a healer. You were basically a lol2handerDPS if you weren't a SAM though most 2-hander DPS were still much better off and considered more often as a DPS compared to all dual-wielding DPS jobs. BST, PUP, and SMN all had to solo to 75 because pet job stigma. Similar with BLM (and by extension SCH) had to solo killing beastman pets. Etc. Etc.

XI was a very exclusionary game at times.

[Yuyuka3]

More about XI

Yes, I heared the rest of that, too. Which is part of why I said they don't learn from their mistakes. They released AST pretty weak, and ended up overbuffing it just as they ultimately overbuffed WHM in XI. I don't want them to overbuff WHM in turn now, but I can't see how they would balance healers without giving WHM something besides healing. I don't want to see any healer have a mandatory raid spot.

However, I, personally, can say that the party finders I followed back in 3.0 never excluded AST. All raids I have seen back then wanted either AST or WHM since, well, trololol fairy and DPS saved SCH that spot. My own group actually ran WHM/AST and, hey, it worked. We both felt AST needs a slight buff, but even my partner agreed that they overdid it in the end.

[Ghishlain]

Yes, I heared the rest of that, too. Which is part of why I said they don't learn from their mistakes. They released AST pretty weak, and ended up overbuffing it just as they ultimately overbuffed WHM in XI. I don't want them to overbuff WHM in turn now, but I can't see how they would balance healers without giving WHM something besides healing. I don't want to see any healer have a mandatory raid spot.

If anything, I would disagree and say S-E did learn something about balance. Due to the significantly simpler nature of XIV versus XI it's much easier to balance jobs and thus make the game much more inclusive than XI was. IE, until recently Geomancer was the defacto support job in XI and NOTHING could displace it from that throne. A friend of mine tells me GEO is just so powerful in the support category they basically count as three DPS in a single slot - thus single handed excluding several other support jobs handily such as Bard.

While it's true some kits would be better at least not everyone would be excluded either. SCH and WAR being basically auto-includes should (hopefully) change when Stormblood comes out as that gives S-E the opportunity to shake up the composition meta greatly at that juncture. However, due to optimization I don't think there will never be a juncture in the game where a job isn't considered "auto-include" in a composition due to just how their kits are at the time of that patch cycle. The best they can do is try to keep the respective roles in the game as closely tuned as possible.

However, I, personally, can say that the party finders I followed back in 3.0 never excluded AST. All raids I have seen back then wanted either AST or WHM since, well, trololol fairy and DPS saved SCH that spot. My own group actually ran WHM/AST and, hey, it worked. We both felt AST needs a slight buff, but even my partner agreed that they overdid it in the end.

It's funny because I also raided as an AST during the 3.0 era. My partner was a WHM and I would pick either AST or SCH depending on the fight, though we also hit the A3S brick wall. Ah well.

In terms of overdoing it, I know a lot of people are in agreement with that sentiment and I feel it's just a means of them to push AST back from obscurity. I'm expecting Balance to get toned down immensely or an entire card kit rework for AST in Stormsblood. Holding my breath until I see the patch notes though since my confidence in the development team is extremely shaky right now.

[Yuyuka3]

If anything, I would disagree and say S-E did learn something about balance. Due to the significantly simpler nature of XIV versus XI it's much easier to balance jobs and thus make the game much more inclusive than XI was. IE, until recently Geomancer was the defacto support job in XI and NOTHING could displace it from that throne. A friend of mine tells me GEO is just so powerful in the support category they basically count as three DPS in a single slot - thus single handed excluding several other support jobs handily such as Bard.

Yet with AST, they created a class that is pretty hard to balance. It's either too strong or too weak compared to the other healers because it basically is both fused into one. We had both sides already. In the beginning, AST couldn't pull its weight in people's eyes, and now it's so op because of it's healing power combined with its buffing power that many people just don't want a WHM altogether. Healing just as good as WHM and shielding more consistently than SCH due to the higher potency. That "MC static looking for AST and SCH" pf I meantioned in an earlier post wasn't a lie, and there are many more of them. I guess the only reason not more people run double-AST now is the fairy...

While it's true some kits would be better at least not everyone would be excluded either. SCH and WAR being basically auto-includes should (hopefully) change when Stormblood comes out as that gives S-E the opportunity to shake up the composition meta greatly at that juncture. However, due to optimization I don't think there will never be a juncture in the game where a job isn't considered "auto-include" in a composition due to just how their kits are at the time of that patch cycle. The best they can do is try to keep the respective roles in the game as closely tuned as possible.

I really hope so, too. They also mentioned they want to try that. Just hope they really do it. But then they said they want to concentrate on tank balance and healers are fine, so it's a mixed bag for me.

It's funny because I also raided as an AST during the 3.0 era. My partner was a WHM and I would pick either AST or SCH depending on the fight, though we also hit the A3S brick wall. Ah well.

=)

In terms of overdoing it, I know a lot of people are in agreement with that sentiment and I feel it's just a means of them to push AST back from obscurity. I'm expecting Balance to get toned down immensely or an entire card kit rework for AST in Stormsblood. Holding my breath until I see the patch notes though since my confidence in the development team is extremely shaky right now.

I really, really hope they will... but ever since 3.0, I'm really not sure if they even know what they are doing, just like Exiled_Tonberry above me. That's why I've been against a fourth healer, too. Don't disturb the already very messy healer balance (or lack thereof) even more by adding a new healer, please, and fix the many serious problems first.

[Ghishlain]

Yet with AST, they created a class that is pretty hard to balance. It's either too strong or too weak compared to the other healers because it basically is both fused into one. We had both sides already. In the beginning, AST couldn't pull its weight in people's eyes, and now it's so op because of it's healing power combined with its buffing power that many people just don't want a WHM altogether. Healing just as good as WHM and shielding more consistently than SCH due to the higher potency. That "MC static looking for AST and SCH" pf I meantioned in an earlier post wasn't a lie, and there are many more of them. I guess the only reason not more people run double-AST now is the fairy...

I personally found AST to be quite serviceable in 3.07. Where things started to go down hill for me was (1) Luminious Aether buff and (2) Balance. If they kept the 3.07 kit + current card changes but not Balance, I don't think AST would be far off. Healer identity aside of course. I made some rediculously long write up back in the 3.0 era where I thought it would be neat if Sect swapping was enabled and had specific card draws and healer bonuses based on the sect being used at the time with synergies occuring as you make the swap. It was pretty much shot down but I liked the idea as a whole, lol.

Fairy is pretty OP on its own right. Let's just take Eos and break her down:
(1) 4,000 potency of healing every minute at 0 GCD and 0 MP to the SCH
(2) Near Medica II strength AoE HoT w/ Rouse in both a lesser duration and 0 MP every minute for every party member within range
(3) Foresight-like MDef buff every two minutes for every party member within range
(4) 20% Cure Potency bonus buff every two minutes for every healer within range

That's a lot of power in a single package. It's just no where near as noticeable as Balance though since Balance says "Increase your damage by 20%" and thus Balance's effect is immediately tangible. Eos.... not so much =p And that's not even getting into the rest of the SCH kit either.

I'll say this - at least we aren't WoWlogs. lol. Last time I looked at that all I saw in like the top.... 400 I think DPS was Shadow Priest. And this was for every single raid in the game at the time I looked at it about three months ago.

XIV's strengths are the synergies they can provide and I feel that's a good strategy to work with. BRD DRG MCH NIN is a DPS powerful composition because all their buffs synergize well with each other and still provide bonuses to both the tanks and healers as well. It's just absolutely nuts. But this is what they should be going for if they're looking for balance and inclusion I feel. At least partially.

If they were to build similar synergies with other jobs, we might see more inclusion. IE, (speculation only) if RDM was given a melee LB we may see RDM BLM SMN BRD become a thing since BRD would have the means to boost pretty much 5/8 members while maintaining a good diverse range of LB. Someone in another thread mentioned Stone doing magical Blunt damage so you start building synergies between WHM and MNK and if we get another blunt DPS in the future, that's even more synergies. Then players could start with a core and look for specific jobs suitable for their current makeup and thus begin to include more players.

This won't change what will eventually become a fully optimized composition for a raid tier but for those who want to play what they enjoy, they'll look for jobs that'll share obvious strengths with themselves and build around it which (hopefully) will make the game more accepting of non-optimal compositions.

I really hope so, too. They also mentioned they want to try that. Just hope they really do it. But then they said they want to concentrate on tank balance and healers are fine, so it's a mixed bag for me.

As I mentioned above I really disliked the LA buff and the Balance buff. My confidence in S-E about healer balance is fairly low primarily because of these changes, let alone the fact that they're just buffing AST with everything but the kitchen sink. I would've much preferred they let people find the strengths of AST on their own but not they just shoe horned AST right out of the gate. So... yeah >>;....

I really, really hope they will... but ever since 3.0, I'm really not sure if they even know what they are doing, just like Exiled_Tonberry above me. That's why I've been against a fourth healer, too. Don't disturb the already very messy healer balance (or lack thereof) even more by adding a new healer, please, and fix the many serious problems first.

Pretty much agreed here too. While I personally would like to see Dancer introduced as a melee style healer, I'd rather they focus on working out the healer balance first. We have a new slate hitting the table soon so here's me hoping. *Crosses fingers*