Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

[Mycow8me]

Yes, because 53 Crit has any impact on current dungeons. Either you do not realize how little that actually contributes to overall output or you're being deliberately obtuse. Food has nothing to do with healer DPS nor does it in anyway influence tuning. Healing potency is absurdly high and we outgear the vast majority of content at release. Content is tuned this way to make it accessible to even the lowest common denominator. Every single person using food isn't going to amount to even a fraction of a healer utilizing their DPS abilities. Not to mention, you continuously ignore the actual criticism. Only one role in this game can literally stand around doing nothing and it's considered acceptable by a portion of the community. And for what's it worth, I dodge just fine. Do not presume how I play the game because I dislike people who are lazy.

This applies to every level of content. Even Savage doesn't hit hard enough to warrant constant healing unless one of the healers attempts to solo. You will always have ample opportunity to DPS in any fight in this entire game. Now I do want to clarify, I, in no way, expect progression players to be optimizing. You are learning. That is a perfectly reasonable excuse to focus on your main job. Tanks typically stay in tank stance until they know the fight better.

Spare me your millennial crap. For one, they aren't my generation. Second, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. You keep trying to equate two scenarios that are neither comparable nor even consistent. Let's try this once more. If we apply your food standard to every piece of content, healers will also be expected to follow it. Therefore, your argument has no basis because healers wouldn't be exempted.

Perhaps you don't "get us people" because you ignore the actual argument. You continuous bring up wholly irrelevant comparisons and insinuate we only want perfection when we actually want effort. Why should 3/6 other players be expected to utilize everything in their arsenal while two get to hide under some nebulous excuse?

Tanks: Maintain aggro; DPS; rotate cooldowns
DPS: Deal damge; dodge avoidable damage; use support abilities
Healers: Heal; DPS... but only if you feel like it

One thing is not like the others.

I will take a healer who DPSs without Cleric or panics out of it quickly because they are putting forth an effort and I wish to encourage it. The healers I take issue with are those who refuse to DPS out of some silly principle.

Oh look your picking and choosing what is viable to increase overall output. Healers don't have to be exempt for it to be relevant. You want overall output increased, you want healers dpsing, but think a party with all dps using food is irrelevant. Your basing the food argument on dungeons again which you even say yourself was "designed for the lowest denominator."
Were going in cirlces because you think my argument is invalid and I don't. Period.

Healers don't have to dps to beat a dungeon, raid, or anything. They DO have to heal for it to be completed. You wanting them to DPS to increase output is perfectly fine. I'm not even against that ideology but if you are not willing to maximize your own class's role which was created specifically for DPS then in my opinion you have no right to call out another class for not doing more than what they are required to do.

You seem to think every situation will have no X factor or no possible emergency situation in the future. A healer not doing anything now should be using this time to DPS cause it is considered to be NOTHING but "downtime." It cannot be "conserving MP for emergencies." Suddenly the other healer dies along with some other deaths and you are at half MP from dpsing. This is purely speculation but how do you prepare for it if you can only be expected to spend your downtime DPSing. What if your party does not have a bard. Do we only apply the argument to dungeons?

I really don't care to continue this anymore though. Some arguing about the "criticisms of healers who are choosing not to dps at any given time" is very different from someone who is not putting forth any effort at all. It is two very different arguments which you seem to think I'm ignoring the latter when I'm not. Even the first post I made in this thread explicitly stated my thoughts on dungeons and DPS clocks.

If you want to pretend to make my argument irrelevant because healers can use food too, go ahead. Overall output includes DPS using food and if the healers are DPSing, they can use food too to improve it. MY argument has been from the start, if you aren't willing to use food as a DPS to increase your potential and maximize it, in my opinion you don't have the right to complain about what the healer is doing and I remain by that stance. Period.

I apologize if the Millennials comment offended you but I'm tired of a generation of gamers that find they need to complain even when they win. In my days of FFXI after fun fights, I was just happy to win and enjoyed the battle. These days the community and FFXIV playerbase is so fixated on efficiency and getting it done faster they don't seem to care about anything else and it makes me jaded.

[aleph_null]

I'm pleased to see that the dev team has finally acknowledged the debate either way, though. Even if YoshiP's statement DIDN'T align woth my current feelings, it would at least let me know that nothing was going to change and let me move on to a different game, lol. Maybe no big changes will come with Stormblood too, but it's made me cautiously optimistic that we might see some better healing design at 70 cap.

I think one of the main issue that caused this is the performance gap between good players and average players. A good example is faust z in a9s, the best players finish the fight around 40s, with both tanks in dps stance all the time and both healers in cleric stance all the time (literally not a single healing spell cast after pull). Obviously this is possible only due to the high performance level of everyone in the group: tanks managing self heals and mitigations properly such that regens and fairy heals are enough to keep them alive, dps bringing incredible amount of dmg output to end the fight before the tanks run out of cds (which means less healing and tank stance needed), healers using their tools (e.g. prepull buffed regens/shields, fairy) while also bringing top tier dps.

Many pf/rf groups finish the fight in around 90s, which is around twice as long as the top groups, obviously in this case both tanks will eventually have to go back into tank stance due to running out of mitigation cds, healers will probably drop cleric stance somewhere around mid fight (or even earlier) to start topping up the tanks (they take tank busters every 7-10s, so once they run out of cds or self heals you'll pretty much have to heal both tanks non stop). How would you retune this fight to need more healing? If you make the tank busters hit harder or more frequently until the good players have to do a lot of healing, then most average groups probably won't have a chance to beat it and we get gordias 2.0 except now it's not about dps check but tank/heal check. I think the devs are going to the right direction by saying that they want to lessen the performance gap between players, in which case it'd be a lot easier to design contents. It's hard to say that we want contents where tanks need more tank stance uptime and healers need to heal more, when the difference between good tanks/healers and average tanks/healers is that big.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Probably not. But we finally downed it. Spare me the "optimal play" circle jerk. I want my team to win, and if that means DPSing harder, or not at all to ensure that they stay alive, I'll do what it takes. And I did. And we won.

The OP doesn't even have savage gear, and their achievements are hidden. I doubt they have a clue how much of a cluster A11S is to heal. But you didn't dps, so you're bad. lol.

Frankly I don't care if my healers dps, never have, never will.

[Mycow8me]

Frankly I don't care if my healers dps, never have, never will.

I'm glad i'm not the only tank that thinks so.

[Kit-Kat]

The OP doesn't even have savage gear, and their achievements are hidden. I doubt they have a clue how much of a cluster A11S is to heal. But you didn't dps, so you're bad. lol.

Frankly I don't care if my healers dps, never have, never will.

Mayhaps you have ignored the part where people discuss on fights/dungeons/whatever where it's not a heal clusterfuck and your healer could basically just sit on the ground while they could be contributing.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Mayhaps you have ignored the part where people discuss on fights/dungeons/whatever where it's not a heal clusterfuck and your healer could basically just sit on the ground while they could be contributing.

The OP was specifically calling out another healer in this thread as being unoptimal in A11S for not DPSing in their first clear.

[Atos]

...look up the statistics for endgame dungeons (since we're talking casual content)...

First, you said "healer casually DPSing", not "healer DPSing in casual content":

...DPS gain from a healer casually DPSing is more than what 2 DPS could achieve if...

In dungeons where the tank mass pulls mobs so you can AOE them for big numbers is one thing, doing it in savage raids or ex primals between healing and mechanics is another. The latter is not what I would call "casual dps'ing", and the healer's opportunity to dps depends on their class (SCH is more capable of dps'ing between heals), what fight you're doing and how familiar everyone is with the fight.

In same tables you will find groups which did just as well without healers dps'ing much (talking about harder content like savage and primals). In the end, if healer DPS is that much of an issue you really need to take a look at the damage dealers in your group.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Oh look your picking and choosing what is viable to increase overall output. Healers don't have to be exempt for it to be relevant. You want overall output increased, you want healers dpsing, but think a party with all dps using food is irrelevant. Your basing the food argument on dungeons again which you even say yourself was "designed for the lowest denominator."
Were going in cirlces because you think my argument is invalid and I don't. Period.

Healers don't have to dps to beat a dungeon, raid, or anything. They DO have to heal for it to be completed. You wanting them to DPS to increase output is perfectly fine. I'm not even against that ideology but if you are not willing to maximize your own class's role which was created specifically for DPS then in my opinion you have no right to call out another class for not doing more than what they are required to do.

Not picking and choosing whatsoever. We were discussing healer DPS on a general scale. I do use food when it's relevant to the content I participate it.

You're doing it again. Food usage does not compare to criticising players who ignore a third of their toolkit. As illustrated in another thread, a White Mage will actually pull higher overall potency than a Dragoon on six targets. That is absurd, and no amount of food buffs can come even remotely close. Regardless, it's the fact only one role can ignore a portion of their abilities I take umbrage with.

You seem to think every situation will have no X factor or no possible emergency situation in the future. A healer not doing anything now should be using this time to DPS cause it is considered to be NOTHING but "downtime." It cannot be "conserving MP for emergencies." Suddenly the other healer dies along with some other deaths and you are at half MP from dpsing. This is purely speculation but how do you prepare for it if you can only be expected to spend your downtime DPSing. What if your party does not have a bard. Do we only apply the argument to dungeons?

I really don't care to continue this anymore though. Some arguing about the "criticisms of healers who are choosing not to dps at any given time" is very different from someone who is not putting forth any effort at all. It is two very different arguments which you seem to think I'm ignoring the latter when I'm not. Even the first post I made in this thread explicitly stated my thoughts on dungeons and DPS clocks.

Damage in FFXIV is entirely scripted. Once you have run any piece of content enough times, you ought to know everything. Does that mean there won't be those occasional surprises? Of course not. But you adjust. No one has argued healers should DPS above all else. Healing will always be their primary focus. Once you've establish the pace and have a good estimation on your healing requirements, you adjust accordingly. I'll default into content with Cleric on and if I notice my co-healer struggling, I'll change my tactics to accommodate them better. If we both have it on, that tells me they want to share both roles and I'll make a mental note to support them. Waiting for something to happen often times wastes your abilities. The game simply isn't reactionary like that.

Contrary to what it may sound like, I do not actually like this DPS meta. Being a DPS main and a frequent tank, I prefer to heal whenever I swap roles just for a change of pace. I want content to better scale towards healing intensity or to have healing potencies reduced so it isn't simply press two buttons and the tank goes from 7k HP to max. It's one of the reasons I enjoy healing in The Feast. It's intense enough to keep me focused predominantly on healing but not too absurd degrees unless people don't know what they're doing.

I apologize if the Millennials comment offended you but I'm tired of a generation of gamers that find they need to complain even when they win. In my days of FFXI after fun fights, I was just happy to win and enjoyed the battle. These days the community and FFXIV playerbase is so fixated on efficiency and getting it done faster they don't seem to care about anything else and it makes me jaded.

It didn't offend. I just find it a lazy dismissal. You are more than welcome to disagree, but my age shouldn't be a factor. Still, no harm done. Some complaints are still, however some I feel are perfectly valid. All I want from people-- no matter the role they play-- is an honest effort. If they're new or inexperienced, I'll have a great deal of patience with them. If we wipe because the healer did try DPSing and messed up. No big deal. I've done that. I've also messed up big pulls. I certainly wouldn't jump on them for because hey, they're trying. And that's all I ask.

[Naunet]

May I ask what keybinds people use for their dps abilities as healers?

I keep all my healing skills 1-whatever and use a Razer Naga, which lets me access them easily and without triggering borderline carpal tunnel (or whatever it is that makes the muscles in my left hand scream). But that doesn't really leave much for dps abilities, so I put them on shift modifiers. However, hitting the shift key constantly while dpsing makes this game probably the most painful for me to play. CTRL would be even worse, I'm sure. So basically a lot of times I am not dpsing in a dungeon because it hurts too much - unless things are really slow and I feel okay with just clicking the dps buttons to get around the pain in my hand. xD

[Zojha]

First, you said "healer casually DPSing", not "healer DPSing in casual content"

Because there is no such thing as doing anything "casually" in non-casual content...? If you were doing content relevant activities casually, it would logically mean you're approaching the content casually, thus making it casual content for you. Therefore, the two are synonymous and preclude content you aren't doing casually. That's logical.

I'll also note that the DPS numbers for dungeons do not include trash pulls precisely because of the AoE. They're based on the boss fights. And I actually took the time to look it up for EX trials as well - In EX Trials, a healer doing slightly below average DPS only amounts to one DPS going from 50th to 90th - average. My, now you're only expecting "one" DPS to become pro to carry you instead of two. And improvement, sure, but...still unreasonable IMO.
(Oh, and for Creator Savage it's the same - White Mage aside. People are onto something when they say it suffers.)
Unfortunately however, 8-man numbers are a little skewed due to the whole "Main healer - Off healer" thing.

That said, you are certainly right that exceptional DPS can carry healers and tanks that aren't DPSing - When designing fights, SE assumes DPS will do 85-90% of their theoretical damage potential while tanks only spam the aggro combo and healers contribute 'zero' damage. So if DPS actually manage to do those 85-90%, tanks and healers could in fact not do anything of note - No Scourge, no Plunge, no Low Blow, no Dark Passenger, no Dark Arts, no Carve and Spit, no Darkside. Just aggro combo in grit and the occasional CD, while healers only heal. That's is possible by design and naturally, such groups will be able to achieve similar results to groups where tanks and healers actually contribute to damage but DPS are not gods of gaming. Personally however, I must say that I do not take this fact as reason to exempt tanks and healers from contributing, as it presents a huge double standard and sets unrealistic expectations on DPS, whereas expecting tanks and healers to contribute to DPS seems far more realistic.